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Sermon Discussion Questions 1 Title Sunday, January 12, 2025 Womb to Tomb Exodus 22:22-24 Caring for Widows 2 Overview Main Idea: God's people are to share God's heart to care for those who can't care for themselves Sermon Outline: God has concern for those who are neglected. {Exodus 22:22-23} God has condemnation for those who are unjust. Exodus 22:24} 3 Pre-Questions James 1:27 describes pure religion as looking after orphans and widows in their distress. How does this verse challenge our current practices in caring for widows within our church community? When you hear the term ‘pro-life,’ what aspects of life come to mind? How does caring for widows fit into a holistic pro-life ethic? 4 Questions General Questions: In 1 Timothy 5:3-16, Paul provides specific instructions on supporting widows. What principles can we extract from this passage to apply in our context today? Psalm 68:5 describes God as a ‘father to the fatherless, a defender of widows.’ How can embodying this aspect of God’s character influence our approach to social justice and mercy ministries? 1 Timothy 5:4 emphasizes that if a widow has children or grandchildren, they should first learn to show godliness by caring for their own family. How can families and the church collaborate to ensure widows receive comprehensive support? In what practical ways can you personally contribute to caring for widows in your community? Consider time, resources, and advocacy. Family Questions: Have you ever met someone who was lonely or needed help? How did you feel when you helped them? Do you know someone in our family or church who has lost a loved one? How can we show them that we care about them? A widow is someone who has lost their husband. How do you think they feel, and what can we do to make them feel loved? In Luke 4:18, Jesus said He came to help people who are hurting or lonely. How do you think Jesus would want us to treat widows or people who don’t have family to help them? What are some things we can do as a family to help people who are lonely, like widows or older people in our church? Activity: “Love in Action” Challenge • Plan a family project to bless a widow or an older person. Ideas include: • Making a homemade card or artwork. • Baking cookies and delivering them. • Inviting them over for a meal or visiting them. • Offering to help with tasks like yard work or groceries. PDF Download

PODCAST That's a Good Question Bridging Beliefs: Catholicism in Contrast March 4, 2024 Jon Delger & Ryan DB Kimmel Listen to this Episode Jon So, Hey everyone, welcome to That's a Good Question, a podcast of Peace Church and a part of Resound Media. You can find more great content for the Christian life and church leaders at resoundmedia.cc . That's a Good Question is a place where we answer questions about the Christian faith in plain language. I'm Jon, I serve as a pastor at Peace Church, and you can always submit questions at peacechurch.cc/questions. Today I am here with lead pastor, Pastor Ryan. Ryan Hello, Pastor Jon. Jon And I'm also here with Mitchell Leach, producer. Mitchell Hey. Jon And we get to have an awesome conversation today about some questions that have come in about Catholicism and how it relates to Protestantism, which is a church like Peace Church and many other churches. And so we're going to talk about how those two things are different and similar and also want to let you know that if you've got more questions about Catholicism, we would love to hear them. So we're going to answer just two questions today, but we're actually working on a resource, a written resource, that we're going to release in the next month or so that provides a lot of answers to these kind of questions, because we're just seeing more and more people move from Catholic backgrounds into Peace Church, and so we want to provide a resource to our church and to other churches that answers those kind of questions about what's it like to move from Roman Catholicism into a church like Peace Church, a Protestant church. And so, today is just the beginning. So we'd love to hear more questions as you have them, as you listen today. So Mitch, you want to kick us off? Mitchell Yep, here we go. I grew up Catholic and believing in the seven sacraments. Can you discuss why or why not you believe in the sacraments and how you practice them? Lots of facets to this. I think we could break it down into, I mean, I think we should probably just start with what are the sacraments? Question #1: I grew up Catholic and believing in the seven sacraments. Can you discuss why or why not you believe in the sacraments and how you practice them? Lots of facets to this. I think we could break it down into, I mean, I think we should probably just start with what are the sacraments? Ryan So my understanding is that sacraments connects to the Latin word sacramentum, which is in many ways Isn't it originally connected to the symbol that a Roman soldier would wear on their armor? There's this notion that it's a it's a symbol that denotes that you are a part of something. Sure I think either way whatever the root word is the sacrament is something that is Sacred is something that sets us apart. That's what I was thinking, it was sacred or holy, yeah, set apart. I think there's probably some overlap in the etymology of the word, but either way, it's the notion that it is something that you do slash wear slash ascribe to you that denotes you're a part of something. You're separated out for something else. And so for the Roman Catholic Church, they have seven of those. We would say we have two of those. But I would say, I don't know how much we want to get into this, right now, that is one thing that even in the Protestant world, the word sacrament isn't always the terminology used. We think of our Baptist friends, they would use the term ordinance for the things that we're talking about, for the two sacraments that we hold to, which would be, of course, baptism and the Lord's Supper. But in the Catholic Church, they have more than just those two, which are? Mitchell Baptism, confirmation. Confirmation, holy communion, penance, marriage, anointing of the sick. Holy order. Jon Yep, yep, so somebody's called into ministry. Yeah, sweet. Ryan I think those are special things, but do they hold equal weight in the faith as baptism and Lord's Supper? Right. That's what we would say. Probably not. Right. Special awesome things. Well, actually, I don't, I can't say it about all of them. I'm not very familiar with all seven. I knew that marriage is one of them. Jon Yeah, well, I mean, like last rites, we would see that very differently. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But going back even to the idea of just what is a sacrament, so like when we talk about them here at peace, we talk about their relationship to the covenants, that the sacrament is a sign. So when we do a baptism service here, for example, we get to do a short 10-minute message or so on what is baptism before we perform baptisms, and we talk about the sacrament as being a sign and seal of God's covenant. Ryan A sacred sign and seal. Jon Yeah, a sacred sign. So in the Old Testament, we talk about the signs of the Passover and of circumcision. Those were signs, they were visible things, they were seals or guarantees of the truth of God's promise and his relationship. So covenants in the Bible have promises, they have blessings, they have curses. God promises something and he offers a blessing to those who walk with him in that promise and in relationship and in obedience to the conditions. There's curses, there's results for disobedience. And in the Old Testament, the two visible signs and seals are the Passover and circumcision. In the New Testament, we've got baptism, which corresponds to circumcision, and you get the Lord's Supper, which corresponds to the Passover. And so I think for us, there's a very different just context even to what a sacrament is and means, and even how it works. So for us, we see it as a sign and a seal of the word, right, it's the word of the promise that is really like the root thing, the main thing. God is giving a promise, and then there's this visible element to it. Whereas in Catholicism, they would say that the visible element, the sacrament, is the thing that actually does the work, that grace comes from the sacrament. Ryan So we'd also say part of the reason that sacrament, or part of the implication for us for sacraments is that it's for everyone who's part of the covenant versus the Roman Catholicism. I don't know if they were tied to the covenant because there are sacraments that wouldn't apply to all covenant bearers. Marriage is exactly what I was thinking of, or the Holy Order being called into the ministry. Those are things that can be applied to covenant bearers, but it's not universal for everyone who's part of the covenant. That's why we would say that the sacraments are those things that apply to everyone who is a covenant bearer. And so that thing, that's a distinguishing mark between us and the understanding of the Catholicism is that the, for our understanding is that sacraments again, are those things that apply to everyone who's a covenant bearer. That's why we baptize infants. And that's for the, and then for those who confess faith, we do have the Lord's Supper, but they're not special, unique things for certain situations. Sure. Like we said, like holy orders and marriage. Jon Yeah, so we've talked about, so there's a difference in the number of sacraments, there's a difference in the context of sacraments, but if I may even go right to, I think some of the very core difference, I think, in how we think about sacraments comes to that, where does grace come from? How do you get saved? How do you get right with God? Those kind of questions. So I want to read, I've got a couple of books here next to me, and... Ryan I just want to, I really want to emphasize this because I know where you're going and it's really important, especially for the person who answered this question because they'll see where we have some, quote unquote, overlap in our sacraments, right? We have two, the two that are in the Catholicism, so that must mean we believe the same thing about those. And we would say there's gonna be some overlap belief, but there's a key fundamental difference that separates what we believe, not just about the individual sacraments, but the entire notion of sacraments, and that's where you're getting in. So I just wanna just go back, this goes back as far as you possibly can to the differences between Catholicism and Protestant believers. Jon Yeah, there's some surface level differences, and then there's some really deep, important differences, and this is really what led to the Protestant Reformation, things that separate out the separation of us from the Catholic Church. So let me read, this is section 1263 out of the Roman Catholic Catechism, and it's about baptism. So here's what they say about baptism. By baptism, all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. In those who have been reborn, nothing remains that would impede their entry into the kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin nor personal sin nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God." Okay, so I think that's just one kind of sample of things that they say about the sacraments, but I think for me that makes it really clear the difference. We actually, in our baptism services, are really clear every time to say baptism does not save neither child nor adult. Ryan Yeah, yeah, exactly. Whether it's a family presenting their child for baptism or it's a person themselves being baptized, that act is not what saves them. Jon Yeah, what saves somebody is faith in Jesus, God's grace that comes to us through faith. Whereas in the Catholic system, the sacraments are really, that's grace comes through the sacraments. I mean, they of course believe you need faith in Jesus, but they believe sacraments is how the grace comes to us. It's where you're, I mean, it just says it really clear, by baptism all sins are forgiven. Whereas you would say, no, it's by faith that sins are forgiven. So one of the, just to break out, as long as we're talking about Roman Catholicism, we might as well break out some Latin, right? So, the Latin phrase ex oper, operata is how the Roman Catholics, that's what they would say, that's how the sacraments work. They just, they work. So we would say the sacraments only do something for you if they're accompanied by faith in Jesus, faith in God's word, a personal relationship with Jesus. Whereas they would say, whether or not you have those things, the sacraments just work. Baptism, confirmation, last rites, these things do work all by themselves. Whereas we would say, nope, they only work because they're right there with the Word, they're right here with somebody's faith in Jesus. So the other part of the question was about how. How is our practice different in how we do the sacraments? Yeah. Can you discuss why or why not you believe in the sacraments and how you practice them? So do we believe in the sacraments? We do believe in the sacraments. We have a different list than they do. And we've talked about how we have a, Jonthere are some very core distinctions in what we mean when we say sacrament. But yeah, how do we, how do we practice them that's different from Roman Catholic churches? Ryan I think when it comes to practice, as far as like how they play out in a church service, quote unquote, I think there's probably some commonalities, happens in a church service among the body of believers as part of the celebration of the gospel. That's how we would say we do it. We do it among the company of believers, something to be celebrated as we are seeing the sign and seal placed out in real life on the covenant family. Mitchell But that even can be different, right? You go to a Catholic wedding and they do communion and it's only for the first, you know, for the bride and groom where we would. Ryan That's interesting. Yeah, because, because I mean that they would say that the marriage is the sacrament. So yeah, I think the biggest thing is that where we start from that these are signs and seals of the covenant of grace. But then also there's the notion that we only have two. We only have the two. Mitchell Well, and I think even like, we would never do a wedding where only two people could take, you know, Have you ever performed a wedding and done communion at the same time? Jon No, I've always said no to that, just because I think, you know, the sacraments are for the church. Have you had people ask? Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Ryan I've never had someone ask, but I would say no as well, too. Not unless you're gonna do it for everybody. Jon That would be kind of it, yeah, sure. Mitchell Yeah, I think even like you look at the difference, this determines our architecture in churches, right? You go to a Catholic church, there's the altar is at the center. And in a Protestant church, if you go to a peace church, you'll see the pulpit. And it's kind of saying, what is the most central part of this service? Ryan Right, and then we talk about that a lot. This is a little bit of a side note, but the reason I use a pulpit is there's a utility that's where my notes and manuscript and where I place my Bible, but there's also even more than that, what's more important than that is it's the symbol that the word is central. Jon Right. Totally. And that's also reflected in how we spend our time during the service. You know, in Roman Catholic churches, the message is usually like 10 to 15 minutes. The homily. Yeah, the main focus for them in the service is the Eucharist, the Lord's Supper. Whereas for us, the main focus is the preaching of the Word. Lord's Supper is really important, but the main focus is the preaching of the Word. Mitchell All right, let's jump into our next question. Can you discuss the Catholic belief of transubstantiation, the Lutheran belief of consubstantiation, and the bread and the wine as symbols of Christ's body and blood? Question #2: Can you discuss the Catholic belief of transubstantiation, the Lutheran belief of consubstantiation, and the bread and the wine as symbols of Christ's body and blood? Mitchell Where do you fall on this spectrum? Jon We'll be right back after this break. Elizabeth Hi, I'm Elizabeth, one of the co-hosts of Mom Guilt, a podcast with new episodes every Monday. Mom Guilt is a podcast about the daily struggles of motherhood. Stephanie and I share real experiences of Mom Guilt and how we have found freedom from that guilt through the gospel. Listen to us on resoundmedia.cc or wherever you find podcasts. Jon So this is where it gets back to what you were starting to say about that there's even a spectrum within Protestant churches. Ryan So yeah, we could lay that out. Yeah, so we're talking about the Lord's Supper here, the bread and the wine, the bread and the grape juice, and what actually is going on, I think is the nature of the question is. So transubstantiation would say that when you perform the Lord's Supper, that the bread and the drink literally, physically become the body and blood of Jesus. And obviously you're taking Luke 22 pretty literally when Jesus says, this is my body and blood, do this in remembrance of me. And so that's what transubstantiation means, that in that ceremony, the bread and the drink become the literal body and blood. Consubstantiation, think of congruent along with, that the bread and the drink remain bread and drink, but they also take on elements of the physical body and blood of Jesus, that they're con, they're with, they're congruent. And we would say that neither of those is happening, that this is a symbolic act while a real spiritual thing is happening, no physical change is brought to the bread and the drink. And then even within more Protestant circles, I would say that our view is actually, so yeah, so you got transubstantiation on one side, so that's the Roman Catholic view, and then you move over to Protestant views. Consubstantiation is one, that's the Lutheran view, and then although I heard, I was reading online before this that actually Lutherans don't like that phrase, even though that's classically how they're... Yeah, I was going to say, I don't know if I've ever heard a Lutheran say, use that phrase. Jon Yeah, yeah. Ryan It's been, I've always heard it. So it's been applied to them. Jon Yeah, I've always heard it. Which is important to say, we want to be fair. Right. In the understanding. Yeah, yeah. So they would frame it a little bit differently, but that's the word that's just always been kind of used to describe their position. Then you've got sort of far over, on the other side, you've got what's like the Baptist position of it. There are ordinances, not sacraments. It's the Lord's Supper. There is no special presence of Jesus. These are just bread and juice. Ryan It's just a celebration, right? I don't want to use the term ritual because that sounds like cultic, but it's... Jon Yeah, it's like a commemoration. Ryan Yeah, commemoration is probably a better way to say it. Mitchell Remembrance, I've heard. Remembrance, yeah, yeah. Jon Which it is. Ryan I mean, that's what we're saying. I mean, that's what Jesus said, do this in remembrance of me. But we are also saying that while no physical change happens in some mystical way to the bread and the drink, we're still saying something spiritual important is happening there. Jon Well, that's what I was going to say. The Reformed view is actually the middle view in Protestantism. So you got Lutherans on the one side saying consubstantiation, physical, human nature, presence of Jesus. You got Baptists on the other side saying, you know, no presence whatsoever, this is only symbols. Then you got us in the middle, Reformed view, saying that there is no physical presence of Jesus, but there's a spiritual, there's something spiritually special about Lord Sephar. Ryan Yeah, I'm completely comfortable saying that as the bread and the drink nourish the body, in that act through faith, grace continues to nourish the spirit. Right. I've heard it described too, Catholic and Lutheran is God condescending again in the sacrament. And the Protestant view or the Reformed or Baptist view would be that it's more of us being brought up. I think either way, I think we're all going to agree that it's something Jesus commanded us to do. We do this to honor him and to remember the sacrifice that he performed on our behalf. But as far as the question of what actually is going on, we would say there is something spiritual that is actually happening. This isn't just a commemoration. This isn't just a ritual. We're not just going through the motions so that memory is evoked in our brains, but something actual is happening as far as in terms of the spiritual elements of grace. Jon So here's a question. One of the things that historically has been said by many is there's been the accusation against the Roman Catholics that the Eucharist, the Lord's Supper, communion is a re-sacrificing of Jesus. John Calvin, no, not, well, the Heidelberg Catechism talks about it as an idolatrous thing, as sin, as something we shouldn't partake of. You guys want to talk about that? What do you think? How far do we go with that? Ryan Man, well, I mean, I was also thinking in terms of when Jesus says, this is my body, when he says, this is my blood, it's after he's broken the bread. It's after he's poured out the drink. When he breaks the bread, that's when he says, this is my body. When he pours out the drink, that's when he says, this is my blood. Do this in remembrance of me. Jon And so, yeah, so this is very interesting to me. So this is Roman Catholic Catechism, section 1367. This is them explaining that whole aspect of the sacrifice and what happens in the Eucharist. So here it is. The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice. The victim is one and the same. The same now offers through this ministry of priests who then offered himself on the cross. Only the manner of offering is different. And since in this divine sacrifice, which is celebrated in the mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner, this sacrifice is truly propitiatory." Ryan Whoa. Jon That last line really gets you, doesn't it? Ryan That, I mean, I was already not liking it, but that just went, they doubled down on that. Jon Yeah. So , that's the thing. A propitiation is an atoning sacrifice. So, that's what the Bible says Jesus did on the cross. He atoned for our sin. He gave a sacrifice himself that atoned or took away our sin on the cross. So, it's a huge deal. That's what we believe. That's the gospel. That's what happened on the cross with Jesus. And right here in the Catholic Catechism, they're saying that this sacrifice, talking about the Eucharist, is a sacrifice and it is propitiatory, meaning it's an atoning sacrifice, that what happens in the Mass when they celebrate it. That sounds a lot like a re-sacrificing of Jesus. Ryan That's what it sounds like to me, and that just goes against what Jesus himself said on the cross when he said, it is finished. When Jesus said it is finished, I don't think he's meaning for now until you do it again. Like, I mean, that was a once and for all statement. Mitchell Yeah, to be fair, they say it is the same sacrifice that they just say in some supernatural way it happened both in the first century AD and then it's also happening, that same thing happens when they do. Jon Yeah, so they definitely don't use the language of resacrificing. They would say, no, it's not a resacrificing of Jesus. But I think once you start to say that what happens in the Mass is propitiatory,I think you start to get into a place where... Ryan Or at any level that it's the same, it carries the same spiritual, sacrificial, saving weight, I just can't draw that argument from Scripture. Mitchell I think when you hear that, when you hear that this is propitiatory, That can be really confusing for someone who hasn't gone through this catechism and memorized it verbatim. Jon Sure, but more than confusing, I think it's theologically problematic. Kevin DeYoung has a book on the Haberberg Catechism, and I wanted to see what he said about question and answer 80, which talks about this. And they're like, they're wrestling with this idea wrestling with this idea of when they kneel in front of the Lord's Supper. That if it really is Jesus, the body and blood of Jesus, you know, if it's really been transubstantiated, then kneeling is the appropriate response. But if that's wrong, then it's actually idolatry. And so I think, and that's where it comes down to for us is we're saying that they're wrong, that it's not the actual body and blood of Jesus and therefore, you know, you're bowing down to something that's not Jesus. Ryan And this is why we're, this is why we say theologically practically matters. Is what you believe and how you behave, if those are mismatched, it's going to lead you to some dark places. So , yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's, I think that's why it was viewed as idolatry, right? Because it's, you're, you're bowing to something that's not God. Jon Right. Yeah. So, again, plenty of room for modern-day Catholics to, you know, they've got some explanations, and I don't want to move past their explanations. There's some nuances there that are important, but also for us as Protestants, just going to go back to there's some core ways in which we definitely disagree on how we view some of these things. Ryan And again, we want to say to the people who are listening, this is all by way of introducing a topic that we're going to continue to address. And so as you listen to this, submit more questions. It's going to help us as we formulate a resource that we want to provide. Again, because we have a number of people who are steadily coming into Peace Church from a Catholic background, or from the Catholic Church, or from a Catholic background, and we want to be able to address all of the questions that are relevant to there. Jon We love you. We're happy to hear your questions. We're happy to have you come. We want to walk it through together, think through what does the Bible say about these topics, how has maybe what you grew up with or what you've been taught, how is that different from what we're teaching and what we're seeing in the Bible? Well thanks guys, great conversation. Thanks everybody for listening. Thanks for the great questions. Again please submit some more questions and especially we'd love to hear some more questions about Roman Catholicism and how you're wrestling with that as you're moving to Protestantism so that we can continue to provide good resources on that topic. Have an awesome week everybody! that topic. Have an awesome week everybody! You can find That's a Good Question at resoundmedia.cc or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Beyond the Heart Theology Jon Delger Multiplication Pastor Peace Church Published On: April 10, 2024 Maybe you’ve been asked the question before - “have you made a profession of faith?” Maybe you are part of a church where occasionally people stand up front and “profess their faith.” What does it mean to make a profession of faith? Is it biblical? Is it an old church tradition? How does it relate to church membership? How does it relate to baptism? Profession & the Bible Scripture is quite clear that if you have faith in Jesus, this faith should not only exist in your heart and mind, it should also be expressed outwardly. For example, Romans 10:9-10 says, If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. Belief in the heart is to be accompanied by confession of the mouth. Likewise, Jesus says that anyone who is ashamed of him (ie. ashamed to profess their faith in him publicly) will be denied by Jesus before his Father (Matthew 10:33; Luke 9:26). So while the Bible doesn’t give explicit instructions for how to profess one’s faith (ie. How many people have to be present? Should they be Christians or Non-Christians? Should this be a public ceremony?), we can see the importance of such an outward act. Profession & Church History Throughout church history, Christians have held ceremonies for new Christians (1st generation believers) or Christian children coming of age (2nd generation believers) to profess their faith. One example is the catholic practice of confirmation, which is a rite of initiation. Reformation leaders like Martin Luther and John Calvin affirmed the importance of educating young believers and then providing an opportunity for them to profess their faith. For children in believing families, John Calvin believed this should happen at ten years old and that children should not be permitted to partake of the Lord’s Supper until after making a public profession of faith. Today, Reformed and Presbyterian churches continue this tradition by asking children coming of age and new members who have not made such a profession in a church to make a public profession of their faith. In Baptist churches, this profession of faith is paired with baptism. Profession, Membership, & Baptism Some of the confusion that sometimes arises about profession of faith has to do with how it relates to membership and baptism. At Peace Church, where I serve as a pastor, we sometimes find adult believers offended at the idea that we would ask them to make a profession of faith before the church in order to become a member. They will say, “I’ve been a believer for many years, I profess my faith in conversations with my family, friends, neighbors, and co-workers. I’ve never stood in front of a church and done it, but why should I have to profess it now as if my faith were something new?” Others will ask, “Why are some people baptized when they make profession of faith while others are not?” Let me try to answer these questions and then share a way we have tried to simplify the conversation. First, the relationship of profession and membership. At Peace Church, we stand in the Reformed and Evangelical tradition of Christians that believe standing before the church to profess your faith is an important thing for the individual and the church. We also pair this act with the covenantal making of promises - promises to God and the church to walk with the Lord, to help other believers walk with the Lord, and to accept loving correction in one’s own life if one’s walk falters. We ask all new members who have never taken this step before to do so. For most, it is an exciting opportunity (despite some natural stage fright). For some, it feels strange because they are not a new believer or a child coming of age. In this situation, my encouragement is to view it more like a testimony. No, your faith is not new, but you are giving glory to God and encouraging the body of believers by proclaiming your faith in Jesus and perhaps sharing a little of how he has worked in your life. Second, the relationship between profession and baptism. At Peace Church, we believe in covenantal infant baptism . So most children growing up in the church will have been baptized as children and will make a profession of faith when they come of age and have a firm understanding of the gospel. We don’t set a necessary age for this, but it is often in the range of 10-18. Some of those coming of age may not have been baptized as children. In this case, they are baptized at the same time that they make a profession of faith and become a church member. Here are the main questions our elders ask in membership interviews. The first is where the bulk of the time is spent, and the rest are usually short answers to clarify the situation they are coming from. Tell me about your relationship with Jesus. Are you currently a member of another church? Have you ever stood in front of a church and declared your faith in Jesus? Have you ever been baptized? Are you currently under church discipline in another church? More Blogs You'll Like Do the Resurrection Accounts Contradict? How differences in the Gospel accounts strengthen rather than undermine the credibility of the resurrection Read More What is 'Probably' Missing From Most Nativity Sets Miracle, Myth, or Meteor? Identifying What the ‘Star of Bethlehem’ Truly Was Read More Is The Bible Really Without Error? A Closer Look at Scripture’s Reliability, Inerrancy, and Historical Trustworthiness Read More

Polarizing Division vs. Gospel Peace Sermon Series: Withstand Ryan DB Kimmel Lead Pastor Peace Church Main Passage: Ephesians 6:15 Transcript Today is the day that the Lord has made. So let us rejoice and be glad in it. And everyone said, Amen. Gun laws, climate change, abortion, governmental power, immigration, public education, Israel, Palestine, Ukraine, Russia, marijuana, gay marriage, transgender, and taxes. Need I go on? These are the issues that we have not just disagreements on, but they say these are the issues that Americans are divided on. And as recent polls show, they say that the polarization is getting worse. After an August 2023 polling, which was showing the widening of the American divide since 2003, that was roughly 20 years ago, after they did this poll comparing this year's results from 20 years ago, this is what one Gallup polling analysis said. It said, this confirms the fundamental foundation for any analysis of UF's politics. The fact that individuals' political identity is highly correlated with their views of social and policy issues, resulting in substantial differences in how issues are viewed across political segments. This in turn reflects the fact that the two major political parties have staked out widely differing positions on the type of issues included in this analysis. Now that was a mouthful and I'm a simple man so let me just say to you simply what was just said. It's basically in America all coming down to whether you are a Republican or a Democrat. That is unfortunately the biggest indicator of where you stand on various issues and in our world today Because apparently the contrast is so drastically clear I just want you to know I want to work extra hard To be known by my allegiance to jesus before i'm known by how I vote. So I'll say it plainly to you I am an ambassador of the kingdom of heaven Sent to this wonderful country to represent my king. And I am an American. And I am thankful that I live in this country and I care about its future. I love being an American. I love being an American citizen. I love raising my kids here. There's no place else I'd rather live. I count myself fortunate to be able to live and raise my kids here. I will not rag on this country. We are not perfect. I'm not saying that but I believe this is the best country There is and I'm allowed to have that opinion. I Am old enough to say that I was an adult 20 years ago. I Remember 03 who here remembers 03 who here wasn't alive don't raise your hand, please don't I don't want to know I don't want to know. I remember 03 and I will tell you this and if you've been around you've known this things have changed. Social norms have changed. COVID changed everything. There are many factors and as we look at the divide and the polarization, this is what both sides do that I think does not help. We see where people stand on one issue and then we think we know everything about them. But for the Christian, when we see someone, whether they are a transgender person with blue hair wearing a mask or they are a redneck with the red cap who's open carrying, do you know what is the first thing that we Christians think when we see someone? That right there is a person made in the image of the Almighty Creator. That is the first thing we think, or at least it should be. That we see a person standing before us. And I'm just gonna put this on the screen, until we see the humanity in people, before we see the difference in politics, we'll never be the people to bring the message of peace this world needs to know. Because that shows something about our heart posture towards other people. We need to see them and their humanity, and more than that, the fact that they are made in the image of God. And that's what we're going to be looking at today as we continue our series called Withstand. We're going to see how the culture war, the political war, is at its root spiritual. We're looking at Ephesians 6. If you've been with us, you know that. So please open your Bibles to Ephesians chapter 6. We are looking at what the Bible calls the spiritual armor, that we've been given spiritual armor to take our stand and to fight spiritually against the true enemy, who is the devil and the way that he's having sway and influence in our world. And the piece of armor that we're looking at today is shoes. The boots that we wear for battle as we are looking at polarizing division versus gospel peace. Now as you turn to Ephesians, just to remind you, if you haven't been here, Paul wrote this letter. This actually just was a letter that one man wrote to a church in a city called Ephesus. And in this letter, he's teaching them about certain doctrines of the Christian faith and how to live out the Christian ethic in our day-to-day life. But then he closes up this letter by talking about this deeply spiritual issue, talking about the spiritual armor, because he's reminding the people in Ephesus and the Holy Spirit's reminding us that our battle is spiritual. That our neighbor is not our enemy, the devil is our enemy, and the influence that he is having, that's what we take our stand against. And so, Paul and the Holy Spirit talks about this spiritual armor, and this spiritual armor is composed of essential aspects of our faith, and that's what we are dressed with as we look at Ephesians chapter 6, verse 15. And so with that, would you hear God's word? Ephesians 6:15 And as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. That's what we're looking at today. So let's pray and we'll get started. Let's pray together. Father God, we come before you. Lord, we just ask that you would help us to find our rest, our assurance, and our strength in you. Would you protect us from the evil one during this series and in our lives and help us by pouring out your Holy Spirit upon us. That Holy Spirit, you would fill us and guide us to live lives, live lives, knowing the truth, that we might live as we take our stand. We pray these things in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus and everyone said Amen. So our verse very, very simply says as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace here, the notion here is quite simple. Our feet carry us as we carry the gospel message. And so if I was gonna give you a main point, I'd put it like this today, very simply. The gospel makes us ready to bring peace in a polarized world. The gospel makes us ready to bring peace in a polarized world. And as we look at this one verse, we're gonna take it phrase by phrase, and here's how we're gonna break it down today. Point one, like shoes, the gospel gives us what we stand in and on. Second thing we'll look at is like shoes, the gospel makes us ready to face the world and the third thing We'll look at is like shoes the gospel brings us back home. Like shoes, the gospel... Gives us what we stand in and on makes us ready to face the world brings us back home I will go ahead and just warn you with this disclaimer today, and I hate disclaimers, but I think it's important I will warn you that today some of you will think that I'm going to be too political Some of you will wish that I would talk on a broader range of topics than I am going to this morning. Some of you may choose to leave the church. I will tell you now, this sermon will fall short for many people. But I am preaching for God's glory and for the good of this church, not for any political party. My challenge here will be to those who are on the left and on the right, make sure that you have not so connected and immersed your identity with your political affiliation that you have lost all ability to think objectively about the truth that's around us. And so what I'm going to ask you to do is please don't walk out at the first statement that you don't like or disagree with. I'm going to do my best to represent some facts here this morning and some data that I think is relevant to the discussion, but I will submit to you right now, it's by no mean exhaustive. We could spend a lot more time talking about a lot more topics, but through it all, in this divided world, we're going to see how we as Christians are to respond to a world that's so polarized. And I will just tell you now, it is by being firstly people of the gospel. 1. Like shoes, the gospel gives us what we stand in and on And as the Bible shows us, first point here we'll look at, is that like shoes, the gospel gives us what we stand in and on. All right, I need everyone, and you in other venues, I need you to finish this sentence for me, if you know it. Finish this sentence. If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for... I think that's so true. But here's what I'm going to say to you. We raise our kids, but do they know not just what to do or how to behave, but do they know why? Are you giving your kids not just morals but a mission? Do they understand why we are to behave in the ways that God has called us to? Because it's glorifying to Him, because it's ultimately what's best for us, and it's what makes us effective in our mission. The last thing that the Gospel of Matthew records is Jesus giving his disciples the Great Commission. A pathetic number of Christians don't know what the Great Commission is. The Great Commission is the last great mission that Jesus gave his church before he returned to heaven. It was simply this, go and make disciples. Go into all the nations, proclaim the name of Jesus and make disciples, but how are we to do that? Yes by loving them, of course with the love of Jesus. We are to love others But it cannot just be that We have to also share the name of Jesus if we are to make disciples They need to know who they are going to be a disciple of and that's why Christians in this day and age, as with for all time, we can never not say the name of Jesus. We need to always be able and willing and be brave enough to speak the name of Jesus Christ. "We need to always be able and willing and be brave enough to speak the name of Jesus Christ." I was way enough to go on a tangent, I decided not to. I'm going to stick to my notes. So here we go. As for shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness, the readiness, or you could say the preparation given by the gospel of peace. I love this. I love how the Bible ties together the gospel and shoes, because the gospel is not just to be lived out in our home, it's to be shared with the world, it's to be brought into the world. And like shoes, like boots, the gospel gives us something to stand in and stand on. And the gospel, what is that? Very simply, very purely, the gospel is good news. So why are we afraid to share it? The gospel is the good news that Jesus Christ died on the cross in our place for our sins. By so doing that, he took our punishment so that we wouldn't have to pay the penalty for our own sins. And He died on the cross. And then, in the greatest miracle there ever was, greater than the formation of the cosmos, the greatest miracle, Jesus rose again on the third day. And thereby granting eternal life. Thereby proving He was who He said He was. And giving us eternal life that does not start when we die, giving us eternal life that starts now. And Jesus calls it new life. In fact, it's so new that Jesus says it's literally like being born again. That's how much of a fresh start it is when you become a Christian, that your slate is wiped completely clean and you are seen as righteous before God. And that is good news. Amen. There is no more eternally important news than that. The gospel is the foundation of what we stand in and on. It's our heart and it's our backbone. And that truth, the gospel truth, the good news is more important than any political, social or cultural division we may have. No matter if you are red or blue, one thing I can tell you about us all is that we all are sinners in need of a savior. And I'm happy to tell you his name, it's Jesus. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Jesus never got into a screaming match with those who opposed him, and neither should we. Why? Because we don't stand against them, we stand for the gospel, we stand on the firm foundation of the gospel, and it's what we put on our feet, like shoes. The gospel gives us what we stand in and on. 2. Like shoes, the gospel makes us ready to face the world And the second thing is like shoes, the gospel makes us ready to face the world. Our verse continues, having put on the readiness, having put on the readiness by the gospel of peace. You guys know, probably know that I have got four kids and when it's time to leave the house, do you know what we say to our kids? All right, kids, go put your shoes on, time to leave. And then we spend the next 10 minutes fighting about getting their shoes on because they're distracted or they lost one But here's the reality when you have your shoes on that's like the last thing we put on Before we walk out the door whether it's cold You need a coat the last thing we put on and there's our shoes and when we have our shoes on when I see the Shoes on my kids feet, then I know that we're ready to leave shoes Make us ready to leave and face the world, just like the gospel makes us ready to face the world. You cannot just understand the gospel and its certain aspects of the gospel in your theology. You need to have the gospel impacted your heart and in your life. "You cannot just understand the gospel and its certain aspects of the gospel in your theology. You need to have the gospel impacted your heart and in your life." That's when you're ready to face the world, when it's impacted who you are at your identity level. And until that point, I dare say, you may just add to the divide and the polarization because we are the people of gospel and not just gospel, the gospel peace. The Bible says that we are to withstand the evil day. Do you know what that means? It means we're going to have to face it. We can't hide from it. We can't run from it. We stand and we withstand in this evil day. And thanks be to God, He's given us exactly what we need to make our stand. He's given us the spiritual armor, which is a call to fight spiritually. I stand up here and fight spiritually every Sunday when I stand up here and preach. You, you do this every week when we gather and we celebrate God's word and we respond in worship and we lift up the name of Jesus. That's why it's so important for Christians to still gather in this world where it's so easy to stay home and watch online. This is why it's so important for us to gather. Because when we gather, we together are taking our stand. When we gather, it's showing the world and the forces of evil that we are making our spiritual and peaceful protests. So don't. I mean, I'm thankful for the opportunity that technology gives us when we're away and when we're sick, but don't forsake gathering. This is one of the ways that we make our stand and take our stand, is when men bring their families and we worship together and we listen to the preaching, and men and women and children come together and we lift up the name of Jesus. It's one way that we stand and fight our battles. And yet, what's funny is that with this piece of armor, shoes readied with not just the gospel, but listen here, the gospel of peace is part of our spiritual armor. Anyone feel the conflict of interest there? We're wearing armor, but yet we're meant to bring peace. How is that so? That's so because our fight is a spiritual fight, that we fight spiritually with a peace that transcends all comprehension because our peace is greater than the divide that's before us in our culture. Now listen, we're about to get into it. Let me just say this, in our last election, our governor lost Berry County by only getting 37% of the vote. She barely won Kent County with only 54% of the votes. And so I know that for me to stand up here and talk about how crazy the left has become would be like preaching to the choir. I'll tell you right now, I have no interest in doing that. I am here to speak truth to this specific congregation. I neither have nor want a larger platform than this pulpit here to this church family because I'm a local church pastor called to equip this church family with the knowledge and the truth of God so that we can go and represent the King out there. I am not here to make friends, I'm here to make disciples. Drink it, let's go. Mm . We're about to, we're about to, sister. I will say this though, if you wanna get coffee, I'm always up for that. Here's what I want you to do. Take a deep breath, and let's all get uncomfortable here for a minute. Again, Gallup Poll did a poll last year comparing the results from 20 years ago. Now listen, polls are polls and numbers are numbers and I'm not a pollster, I'm not an analysis. I'm just reporting on what's been reported. And these polls I'm going to cite, and I'm happy to share with you the documents I use, it's about the stance of Republicans and Democrats. Again, which unfortunately appears to be the clearest divide in this country. And it should be noted that what these polls did was they asked those who identify as independents to indicate which way they leaned, left or right, and then they lumped their numbers in with Republicans or Democrats respectfully. Other polls separate out independents,which is why you may find some discrepancies. Now, I'm not gonna get into political issues, I just wanna stick with what I believe is clearly biblical issues. And as you see here, it's clear that the political divide, it's clear that in this political divide, the blue party is most aligned with some key views that are the most blatantly unbiblical. But they're not alone. Let's see what I mean. Abortion. Yeah, let's just start there. The killing of the life of unborn babies in the womb is something that the Democrats have gotten more radical on. In 2003, the percentage of Democrats who believed abortion should be legal under any circumstance was 32%. Today it's at 59%. That's a 27 point increase. Republicans have stayed largely the same over 20 years, actually slightly dipping from 15% to 12%. But listen, while the left is more aligned with some views that are the most clearly unbiblical, the Republican side is growing in acceptance of things the Bible does not stand for. I'm sorry, my friends, smoking pot and getting high is a form of intoxication. The Bible is not opposed to alcohol, but it's opposed to getting drunk and intoxicated. And that's what typically a person seeks to do when they smoke marijuana. If you don't think getting high is spiritual, let me just tell you, as a teenager in the 90s, it certainly is. In the last 20 years, Democrats approval of marijuana has gone from 48% to 83%. Republicans have gone from 23 to 55%. Let me do the math for you real quick. This means the rate of increase of acceptance has been the same for both sides of the aisle. Or take the acceptance of the normalizing of having children outside of marriage, that focus is no longer supposed to be for a two-parent household, but the normalizing of children outside of marriage. Twenty years ago, Democrats were at 49%, they are now at 82%. That's a 33-point jump versus Republicans going from 37% to 61% a 24 point jump that is trending away from the biblical moral foundation. Or take gay marriage and mind you President Obama got elected while saying He believed that marriage was for a man and a woman 20 years ago 52% of Democrats approved of gay marriage almost divided now to 85 percent. Another 33 point jump versus Republicans who went from 30 percent to 57 percent. A 27 point increase, again, trending away from the biblical standard. And when it comes to the moral acceptance of divorce, I'll be the first one to say that this one needs more nuance than what the polls allow. But if we just want to speak in very broad ways, here's the data. 20 years ago, 61 percent of Democrats said divorce was morally acceptable. It's now at 88% a 27-point jump Republicans have gone from 53% to 69% a 16-point increase That's trending away from the biblical hope for marriage now. Listen marriage is a deeply spiritual thing It's also essential to the life and the health of a culture This is an important one the Bible does reserve divorce for very specific in situations But the biblical hope for marriage is that marriages are to be fought for If you're taking notes, let me let me summarize something here for you church in Many of the moral issues if you listen to what I just said The Republicans in general are more liberal on these issues than the Democrats were 20 years ago, with abortion being a noted exception. What I'm trying to tell you is that if you are a lifelong Republican, I hope you see that it's not just the blue party that's changing. Now, this isn't a sermon that both parties are just as bad. That's not what I'm saying here. But if anyone thinks that the Republicans or the Democrats fully represent the kingdom of God, let me tell you they don't. The church represents the kingdom of God. I am an ambassador for God's kingdom. You know what that does? That allows me to take an objective look at both parties to see where they are getting strong and where they are falling flat. And I understand, believe me, I completely understand that people cast their vote for a wide range of political and moral issues, way more than what I've just talked about here, many more than I can describe here. I'm not attacking anyone for how they vote. I'm just asking everyone to see that when you look at both parties, in many respects, both of them are trending away from the biblical standard. So let's be clear on the data here. One party is perfect. The church isn't perfect. I'm certainly not perfect. But I will just tell you, when I'm looking to cast my vote, it's for a party that's advocating for rational immigration policies that welcome people legally into this country, as many as we possibly can do, but not an open border. I'm looking to cast a vote for a candidate who's not for killing children in the womb or the sexual mutilation of children who feel uncomfortable in their bodies. I'm looking for a party and a candidate that I fully understand will be imperfect, but I'm looking for the one that's the closest to the values I hold, the closest that the Bible teaches, because I believe that's what is best, not just for me, but for all of humanity. Because in our system, we need to remember that in many ways, the thing that a politician does will last longer than their tenure. But the way things are trending, I have to ask, I wonder if 20 or 30 years we'll be able to tell the difference between the two parties. And because of that, the church better awaken themselves to what's happening on both sides of the aisle. And even more than that, we need to wake up and return to our original mission which is to go and make disciples with shoes laced up with the gospel. Let me tell you Peace Church, I'm happy to say this, we have quite a few people in our church family who are very active in local government. I want to honor them and we need to pray for them. Amen. So if you are involved in local government, I've got a rolling list. I would love just to make sure that you're on the list so I can be praying for you. If you are involved in any form of local government, would you please shoot me an email and just let me know how you serve so I can put you on my prayer list. So here's the question. How does the gospel make us ready to face the day? Here's how. By reminding us that we are citizens of a country for a lifetime, but we are citizens of heaven for eternity. And because of that, we should be objective about politics as we speak the presence of Jesus and peace into both sides of the aisle. How does the gospel make us ready to face today? By causing us to remember who we truly represent, by reminding us what we really stand for. As you remember that our fight is not with our neighbor or our political opponents, but it's with the spiritual forces of evil in this world that are moving everyone away from the biblical standard. How does the gospel make us ready to face the day? By reminding us that our symbol is not a donkey or an elephant. It's a dove that comes in power. It's a lamb that was sacrificed. Our symbol is the lion of the tribe of Judah. How does the gospel make us ready to face the day? By reminding us that our identity is not in any political party. It 's in our Savior who shed his blood for us. It's in our Savior who does not come from either side of the political system, our Savior who comes from heaven. And so we need to stand. Stand ready with the gospel for the gospel. And if you're like me, you get weary of the divide sometimes. If you're like me, you get angry at what's happening in our world. And so if you're like me, let me leave you this last point. Like shoes, the gospel brings us back home. 3. Like shoes, the gospel brings us back home The gospel of peace. I don't want this division. I don't want this divide. I don't want this polarization. Do you know what I want? I want to go home. My ultimate citizenship is in heaven and the gospel is my ticket there. Because it's the gospel of peace. And the most important peace we can have is not peace between the two sides of the aisle in America. The most important peace we can have is peace with God. And that's what the gospel brings us. It brings us to a peace that we can have with God because Jesus has removed the barrier of sin that separated us and God. And when we share that gospel with people and they enter into that peace, then we share in that peace with them. Because you know what the gospel does? The gospel turns our neighbor into family. Sometimes family has disagreements on certain parts of politics. But you know what a family is united in? A family is united in values, in who our father is, and where our home is. And just like how my boots will bring me home at the end of the day, the gospel will bring me home at the end of my life. And between now and then, we have to fight. Between now and then, we wear our spiritual armor and we stand for the truth this world needs to know. We fight spiritually against the forces of evil as we speak the name of Jesus to those who need to hear it. So when this world seems dark and the bitterness seems so strong and the divide seems to be only getting bigger, just remember when it's all done the gospel will bring us home. So let's stand and fight until then. Until that day with the hope of heaven in our hearts, we are to stand and we are to fight. Fight with truth and love, because remember, the gospel makes us ready to bring peace in a polarized world. So may you represent your Savior to a sinful world, holding Him out as the only hope we have as we stand with shoes readied by the gospel. Amen. Would you please stand? I think in this time of all this newness and this divide and all the craziness, I think it's probably very appropriate for us to go back and sing an old hymn together. And so here's what I'm going to encourage you to do. If you are a follower of Jesus, we are singing for the glory of God in response to what Jesus has done for us, and we are singing as a church united in our peaceful spiritual protest against the great enemy. That's what we get to do here now as we raise our voices. So let's pray. Father, we come before you. We ask here now, Lord, that as you have and you'll continue to pour out your Holy Spirit upon us, the Holy Spirit, as our ultimate worship leader, will you call us into a deep, deeply united time of worship as we sing with one voice of the truth of the gospel. God, we love you and we thank you. And we pray these things in Jesus' name. And everyone said, Amen. And everyone said, Amen. Church, let's worship together.

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New Year New Life Sermon Series: New Year New Life Logan Bailey Family Pastor Peace Church Main Passage: Ephesians 4:17-24 Transcript Good morning. How are we doing? I've said it before, I'll say it again, the front row is where the fire is at, but there are four front rows this morning and they are not all equal. So I will try my best, but we'll all leave here a little disappointed in my performance of how good I can spin and talk. So this is my best attempt right here. We'll see how I can continue to do that. Good morning, Peace Church. Good morning to those online as well. If we have not met yet, my name is Logan Bailey. I lead high school ministry here at Peace and young adult ministry here at Peace. My wife, Rachel, also works here. She's the community life director. So if you are new to Peace, she will be in the lobby after service ready to answer all of your questions. So don't forget that. Today, we are looking at Ephesians 4, 17 through 24, and we will see that we have new life in Christ, new life for the new year, may we walk in it. So I want to start with a story this morning. Many of you may recognize this story. It's the story of a good king, his page boy, and a winter storm. I had no idea what a page boy was a month ago now I do I'm going to tell you what it is so then we all know in the Middle Ages everyone wanted to be a knight and before you could be a knight you'd have to be a squire and before you could be a squire. You'd have to be Page boy it started around the age of seven a page was between the ages of seven and fourteen and the first step to becoming a knight started at age seven and pages would help run errands, they'd gather clothing and hold equipment and they would learn good manners as they watched the knights and kings that they aspired to be. So now we all know what a page is and we can get back to the story. So the story is a story about a page boy and a good king. And this king looked at the large feast that he was eating and he thought of all the people outside of his castle that were going hungry and He was warm in his castle and he was looking outside of the bitter winter storm And he was thinking of all the people that were cold outside of his castle and the story goes That this good king and his little page boy gathered gifts and supplies for the winter and they went out into the storm and handed it out to those in need. Page and monarch, forth they went, forth they went together through the rude winds, wild lament and the bitter weather. Raise your hand if you have any idea what I'm talking about right now. All right, amen. All right, cool. So as they walked through this winter weather, the young boy began to grow very tired. The snow was heavy. It kept getting heavier and heavier as they walked. The gifts he was carrying got more and more difficult to carry, and he got his king's attention and begged him to stop, to turn around, to go back to the castle. He did not know how much further he could go, and the good king looked at him, knelt down close and said, wasn't not much more difficult for our good king to journey from heaven to earth for us? He said, my child, use my footprints, walk where I walk, step where I step and the snow will be less of a burden to you. And so they walked, carrying the gifts, and that young boy found warmth and guidance in his king's footsteps. Life sometimes feels like that winter storm, and how often do we feel like a child just being tossed by the wind? But we are not alone. We are not left to figure it out on our own. We are given guidance. And Jesus tells us that if we abide in His Word, we are truly His disciples and we will know the truth and the truth will set us free. So my goal in the time that I have this morning is to point out the footprints in front of us. God has given us guidance in His Word. So let's go to His Word and receive instruction of life. Let's read Ephesians 4 together, 17 through 24, and we will be reminded that we have new life in Christ. May we walk in it. So please follow along, starting in verse 17. Now this I say and testify in the Lord that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to their hardness of heart They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality greedy to practice every kind of impurity But that is not the way you learned Christ Assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him as the truth is in Jesus to put off your old self which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds and to put on the new self created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. Let's pray. Father Almighty we pray that you guide us this morning as we worship you. Jesus thank you for being our good shepherd who guides us. And Holy Spirit, we pray that you speak through your word this morning. May you be glorified in everything we do and in our hearts. In your name we pray, amen. So the book of Ephesians, if you've studied it before, you'd know this, that the first six chapters, the first half, the first three chapters are doctrinal and the second half is practical. Meaning, chapters one through three, they are stating true things about God. They're saying true things about God and about life. And then 4 through 6, the second half of Ephesians, are encouraging a way of life in light of those truths. What kind of things does Ephesians say in the first three chapters? It says that we have eternal purpose in God, that we have been given grace through faith, and that there is unity and peace in Christ. And then starting in chapter four it says, in light of those truths, therefore, live differently. In light of those truths, therefore, live differently. Christ has won for us new life, therefore, walk in it. And so knowing that background of our passage, let's go, I just want to go through these verses a chunk at a time to get a bit deeper. So starting in verse 17 it says, Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do in the futility of their minds. And so right off the bat this passage has a biblical command. It's telling us to do something. No longer walk as the Gentiles do. And if you know chapter 4, if you have your Bibles there you can see verse 1 of chapter 4. It's the same command. Walk according to the calling to which you have been called. The same command, just the other side of the coin. Walk according to the calling to which you have been called, and no longer walk as the Gentiles do. My paraphrase of this is, of this biblical command, stop living like you once did before you knew Jesus. The word Gentile is a biblical word for non-Christian. In this passage we could say pre-Christian. The way of life of someone who does not know Jesus and what follows in verses 18 and 19 is a description of the non-Christian, a description of who a Christian used to be before they met Jesus. And it is not easy to read. It's brutal to read. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to their hardness of heart. They have become callous, have given themselves greedy to practice every kind of impurity. Futility of their minds. What does that mean? Well based on this passage, whatever it means, this passage is showing us that the non-Christian's mind and understanding alienates him from God. So that is the description of a non-christian The mind is hard-hearted and distant from God. And so now the word futility makes a bit more sense because futility means weak or Unable meaning those who do not have Jesus are without hope Because without Jesus we are unable to find what we're looking for. Because without Jesus we are unable to be who we are meant to be. The Bible is very clear that we are meant, we are created to find contentment in Him. That we were made to be who He has designed us to be. And if we are made to be who He has designed us to be, how could we ever imagine doing that without Jesus? How could we ever imagine being who God has made us to be without Jesus? Unable! Without Jesus, we are unable to live the life that we are meant to. So stop living like you used to before you knew Jesus. heart that causes you to distance yourself from your Savior, settling for things of flesh rather than eternal joys, settling for temporary joys rather than the ways of God. Walk as you ought, not as you used to. I want to reflect a bit more on the idea of futility, the inability that we see in the non-Christian. An old Christian mathematician once said something that I think is very important for us this morning. His name is Blaise Pascal and he said this, all men seek happiness. All men seek happiness. This is without exception. The cause of some going to war and of others avoiding it, it is the same desire in both. This is the motive of every action, of every man, even those who hang themselves. All men seek happiness. I think this helps us better understand what the Bible is saying. That the ones who are alienated from God are actually attempting to do so. People aren't non-christians because they are being blinded. People are non-christians because we blind ourselves, covering our eyes to the glories of God, thinking it will help us find what we're all looking looking for which is happiness but it is in vain if we don't have Jesus we are all after happiness joy and contentment but the Bible isn't simply being poetic when it addresses these things in our hearts when it says that God gives us the desires of our hearts or when it says that the Christian is like a flourishing tree planted by the water, the Bible is always directly addressing the needs of our hearts because it knows that we long for joy, we long for contentment, we long for flourishing. Even Jesus himself came to us and went to the cross for the joy set before him. The non-Christian too is seeking to find joy and contentment, but the effects of sin are disastrous across all of life, most tragically on the mind. Sin's greatest deception of all is the deception of the mind, and it is as true today as it was then. The man who thinks the beginning of wisdom is the rejection of God is a fool. But the needs of humanity remain the same. We are still in need of the guidance of our Creator God whether we think we are lost or not. We are still in need of our Savior, whether we think we need to be saved or not, we are still in need of a renewed mind, whether we recognize the deception of sin or not. In my own story, my own testimony, I see the deception of sin pretty clearly. I just didn't see my sin until the Holy Spirit peeled my hands away from my eyes. When I was 16, I saw as if an audience member to the event, the Holy Spirit changed my heart. The Holy Spirit renewed my mind and to free me from this deception of sin that was over me. And not soon after that, I saw the deception of sin on the mind on display in someone that I brought to church as a high schooler. We sat there listening to the preacher preach the gospel, the holiness of God, the goodness of God, our sin and how it alienates us from Him and the repentance and forgiveness available in Jesus on the cross and resurrection and my heart was on fire as I heard the gospel message and in that moment the man I brought leaned over and whispered in my ear, hey where's the bathroom at? We heard the same message but with his hand over his eyes he just refused to see it and scripture is saying that we are all this way, but for those of us in Christ, we are sticks and twigs snatched from the fire, rescued, redeemed, bought back, our hearts and mind regenerated and given new life. And so if you are sitting here this morning and you don't see the deep joy in that then perhaps I'm doing a poor job of preaching but please consider perhaps your heart is darkened by sin and you're suppressing the truth consider it as an Yes, the Bible has harsh words to say against the godless lifestyle because the Bible knows the state of our hearts and doesn't hold anything back. The godless life looks a lot like, from the Bible's perspective, destructive rebellion to God and that shouldn't be surprising because whenever you wing it without the instruction manual it's not going to be pretty imagine if we were all the gun range and I decided I'm just gonna throw a blindfold on and spin around a few times and then then I'm gonna try to shoot the target get out of there, that won't go well. The Bible is going to be honest, it's going to be precise about the state of our hearts, especially when it's not going well. Just like how it would be completely unloving for God to hide a fatal diagnosis from you. Verses 20 and 21 bring out the gospel to the forefront and it says, but that is not the way that you learned Christ, assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him as the truth is in Jesus. So the non-Christian has alienated himself from his Savior, but not you, not anymore. You know Christ, you've learned Christ. You've been taught the truth by Jesus. And so this command and encouragement of the text is if you know Jesus, then live according to the new life you have been given. If you know Jesus, then live according to the new life you have been given it is no surprise it should not be a surprise at all that the Bible has an opinion on the right way to live we live in a world that is offended by exclusive claims and we are so saturated in that world that many of us cringe when we read a passage like this but it is right that the Bible has a stance on the right way to live. It isn't just a warning against destruction, it is an invitation to life. No longer walk the way you used to. You are different now because you've learned a new way of life. The Bible says, behold, the old is gone, the new has come. You are a new creation. This is the message of the gospel. The good news that Jesus came, took our sins, died on the cross, and then he rose to new life so that we too could walk in new life. Jesus rose from new life so that we too could walk in new life. We have new life in Christ. May we walk in a new life for the new year. So using the illustration that we opened with, the king and his page, I just think it's a powerful illustration because we know that life is constantly pulling at us, life is constantly nagging us, life is constantly beating us down. It is the winter storm and whether that is the suffering of life, the temptation of Satan or just the destructive sinful habits in our own hearts, this winter storm is brutal. And God describes it as brutal because it is and it's destructive. But we have been invited to a better way. We have a guided path. We have a better way through the storm. We have the footprints of our King. We have the guidance of our King. So stop trying to make your own path in this snow. Get on the path that God gives us in scripture for the joy set before us. May we see our good king as he kneels down to us and whisper, my child, hear my voice, see my guidance, use my footprints. And he says, this winter storm won't be worth comparing to the eternal joy I have for you. So how can we take this and apply it to our lives? New life, new year. Thankfully the Bible does it for us. So the Bible gives us a picture of what this looks like in our lives. It says to put off your old self which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires and be renewed in the spirit of your minds and to put on the new self created after the likeness of God and true righteousness and holiness. The Bible says put off. That's good news that we can we can remove our hard hearts because we have a savior who can take it from us and give us something eternally better, of renewed mind, eternal joy, truth that sets us free. So take it off. Jesus has brought you into a warm house, put you by the fire, take the jacket off. Take off the shame, take off the guilt. Jesus took it to the cross. Put off your old self, start walking in new life looks like is seen at the end of A Christmas Carol in the transformation of Ebenezer Scrooge. If you know A Christmas Carol, the light bulb comes on for Ebenezer Scrooge at the end of the story, but not because of guilt and not because of fear of death, but because God Graciously shows him the way of life that gives true lasting joy That is the path that God wants for all of us to follow him into new life towards joy So So, your homework is to go home and watch the 1984 edition of Christmas Carol with George C. Scott. Second option would be the Muppets. So, consider what this all means for your 2023, to put off your old self, lifestyle, former desires, former dreams, the pre-Christ life that is dominated by hardness of heart towards the things of God and embrace the life that God has won for you. Follow your Savior. The Bible is saying if you know Jesus, if you know Christ, if you have heard His truth, then you have been renewed by your Savior. You aren't lost, you aren't blind, you aren't alone, but you are saved. You can see the truth and you can be confident that eternal joy is yours because He who began a good work in you is faithful to bring it to completion. You can be confident that eternal joy is yours because He who began a good work in you the odds lean towards God getting what he wants which is his glory and your joy so this new year I think our encouragement is to do some course correction to get back to the guidance guidance that God has for us. Yes, it would be a good thing to call Max effort tomorrow and get the gym membership to start the new year. It'd be good. But much more importantly, thinking of New Year's resolutions, infinitely more importantly, we need to be thinking about how we can better walk in his footprints. How we can better follow the guidance of our King. So here's a question for all of us. How often in a week do you read your Bible? Or listen to your Bible? Or listen to someone's thoughts about the Bible? Or think about the Bible at all? How will you submit to the word of God in 2023? How will we better submit to the Word of God in 2023? Read it before work, read it before bed, every day. Talk about it weekly with a friend or two. Join a Bible study or two. Don't try to do all of it, but please do something. When God found Adam and Eve after they sinned in the Garden of Eden, he was blunt about their sins. He didn't pull any punches. He didn't hold anything back about But God also saw the clothes that they made for themselves, the ragged clothes, and God made new clothes for them. So imagine this moment where Adam and Eve have to take off the clothes they made for themselves, set it aside, and put on the new clothes that God made for them. To do anything else would have been foolishness when a prisoner is released It would be unthinkable for him to keep wearing his prison clothes in other words Jesus doesn't save us merely to add to our life But to kill our old life and give us a new one the Bible says the old is gone He took it to the cross and the new has come so let's live like it So when Satan says, remember how ragged your clothes are, the gospel enables us to say, how ragged my clothes were. They aren't ragged anymore. So let's live like it. Let's read the word of God and think and believe that it really is true, that there really is a heavenly father who made a way for sinners. That is what it looks like to have a renewed mind and spirit, to let the word of God be your guiding light every week, every day, every morning, every evening. So in 2023, the greatest resolution we have to make is how will I better submit to the word of God? We have new life in Christ. May we walk in it. May we cling to the guidance of God's Word as if it were the footprints in front of us, guiding us in new life. Let's pray. Father, you are gracious, you are good. Father, you know each and every one of us in this room. You know where we're at, you know the storm that we're walking through and you go before us so Father, I just thank you for the beauty of your word the truthfulness of your word and I pray God that we are Joyfully willing to submit to it because we know that you have our joy in mind for your glory and our joy father I just pray for everyone in this room every family in this room father that we all can leave and see you clearer and have a conviction to read your word more and submit to it, be read by it and follow you. God, you are so good. and follow you. God, you are so good. We love you. In your name, we pray, Amen.

The Beauty of Friendship Sermon Series: Philemon Ryan DB Kimmel Lead Pastor Peace Church Main Passage: Philemon 21-25 Transcript These words today is the day that the Lord has made so let us rejoice and be glad in it and everyone said amen. And everyone said like they mean it. Yeah, see I knew I had you you had it in you all right, so today we're closing up a sermon series looking at friendship and we're on week three the final week and I Know what many of you are thinking? There's no way we can get through a sermon series on friendship without talking about what is possibly the greatest friendship ever depicted in literature. And that's the friendship, you know what I'm talking about, between Frodo and Samwise Gamgee. Right? Where's my fellow geeks at, right? Okay. For those of you who don't know, let me learn you something here. The greatest, I think, the greatest friendship in fiction literature is depicted between Frodo and Sam. I just think it's absolutely amusing, amazing. It comes from the story of the Lord of the Rings. That's a three-part book that was released some time ago, widely popular movies. How long ago were those movies? Don't tell me those like 20 years ago. Are you serious? I'm thinking about my life right now. 20 years ago? Wow. Okay. So, The Lord of the Rings, three-part movie, three-part book. It centers on this fellowship. Now, you guys probably know this, but let me just, for those who don't, what we have here is there's this friendship between the Frodo, between the hobbits, Frodo Baggins of the Shire and his friend Samwise Gamgee. Now they, they were part of a quest, a fellowship of nine that was tasked with traversing the known land of middle earth up and down through thick and thin to go to the wicked and terrible and evil land of Mordor where they were to destroy the one evil ring that they were to hide and carry throughout their journey. Now, near the end of the first book, this fellowship of nine begins to break apart. And Frodo, the littlest among them, realizes that he must go alone for the rest of the journey by himself on his adventure to destroy this evil ring. And so he sneaks away from the group, knowing that he's meant to go on his own. And his friend, Sam, realizes that he's sneaking off to go by himself. And so his friend, Sam, goes to chase him down. And just as Frodo is crossing the river to start the journey, the last part of the journey on his own, Sam calls out to him and wants to be with him. And calls out to him, and the movie's doing a phenomenal job of that scene, if you know what I'm talking about. But I wanna read to you from the book how the scene played out. So Sam goes after his friend Frodo who's trying to leave on his own. And Frodo said to Sam, but I am going to Mordor. I know that well enough, Mr. Frodo, said Sam. Of course you are, and I'm coming with you. Now Sam, said Frodo, don't hinder me. I must go at once. It's the only way. Of course it is, answered Sam, but not alone. I'm coming too. Of course if you know the story, their friendship is just played out in just beautiful and heroic ways. And here's the reality. We all need a friend like Sam. And we all need to be a friend like Sam. We need someone in our life who's going to stand by us no matter where life takes us. And that's kind of what we've been looking at in this sermon series as we've been walking through the book of Philemon. It's a short book we find in the New Testament. Today we're closing up a series looking at that letter, but specifically through the lens of the friendship that the Apostle Paul had who wrote the letter to his friend Philemon. Now if you've been with us through the series, you're probably sick of hearing about the context, but if you haven't been with us, you need to know what's going on behind the story. And so let me just take a step back and share the context. So important for everything that we look at in Scripture. And so if you haven't yet, turn in your Bibles to Philemon. There's only one chapter. We'll look at verses 21 to 25, but here's the context. Paul, who wrote the letter, had led this man Philemon to faith in Jesus. And this letter reveals a lot. But the letter really keys in on this other man named Onesimus. Now Onesimus was a bond servant of Philemon. Now a bond servant was like a slave. They were a slave, but we just don't like to use that term because when Americans hear that term, we think of something very different than what happened in the ancient world. We think of what happened in the 17 and 1800s here in America when we had a chattel race-based slavery that was absolutely demonic and horrendous and evil. Now the ancient world also had slavery. It wasn't exactly or always race-based. Now in the ancient world, when this letter was written, bond servants, some of them at times could even hold high-level jobs, and some of them could even work their way out of slavery. So it was a different setup. I'm not defending either system. Both are horrible, and the Christian faith ultimately corrodes each of them. But here's the story. So Onesimus was a bond servant, was a slave of Philemon, but Onesimus runs away from his master, and he runs to Paul. Paul's in prison at this point About 1,300 miles away in Rome so Onesimus runs away a runaway slave back in that day could have been killed on sight He runs away on this journey to go to see Paul Doesn't exactly say but it's easy to surmise that he probably went to see Paul hoping that Paul would grant him his freedom But while under Paul's care while Paul's in prison by the way, Paul leads Onesimus to a faith in Jesus. Now what's fascinating about this story, and when you read the book of Philemon, is that Paul is clear that he could command Philemon to release Onesimus and to grant him his freedom, but he doesn't. In fact, what he does is Paul, while he's in prison, he leads on this mess to faith in Jesus and then actually sends him back to Philemon with this letter that he's written. Now in this letter, Paul says to Philemon, I could command you to do what's right. You know what the right thing is to do, but I'm not going to command you to do this. I'm not going to make you, I'm not going to make myself a master to you and tell you what to do. I'm just going to remind you of the gospel and let that call you to do the right thing. You've got a faith in the gospel, so you need to follow and do what God has called you to do. He places the burden back on Philemon. It's an incredible story if you actually sit in what's happening here. Paul says, I could command you to go against the grain of the culture and you could just simply release Onesimus. I can command you to do that. But Paul says, I'd rather you do that out of your own faith and out of your own love for God. Paul says, I'd rather you do the right thing because you know it's the right thing, not because I told you to do it. Now you have to understand, you have to understand friends, Philemon was well within what was culturally appropriate if he wanted to keep on this mess as his slave file a man could have appealed to the world system he could have appealed to the culture at large for justification for keeping on this mess as his slave file a man could have tried to find some way to bridge his faith with what was culturally accepted and try to find some sort of middle ground is that what happens? Well, we're going to find out. But Paul, either way, is calling Philemon to a challenge. A challenge to his faith and a challenge to the culture they live in. But what we've been looking at is that Paul was able to bring this challenge to his friend Philemon because of the common faith they shared in Jesus Christ. Because they both believed in the gospel, because they were Christian brothers. And so, we're going to see how this letter actually closes up today. And so with that, would you hear God's word? Philemon verses 21 to 25. Would you hear God's word? Philemon 21-25 21 Confident of your obedience, I write to you, knowing that you will do even more than I say. 22 At the same time, prepare a guest room for me, for I am hoping that through your prayers I will be graciously given to you. 23 Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus, sends greetings to you, 24 and so do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, and Luke, my fellow workers. 25 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen, this is God's word, let's pray, and we'll continue. Let's pray. Father in heaven above, Lord by the power and the presence of your Holy Spirit, we would ask that you would be with us today as we close up this series looking at your Holy Word. Please Lord, would you help us to see and to be reminded of the power of good and godly friendships? And not only this, would you help us to find those friends? Would you help us to be that friend? And Father, we do pray these things for your glory and for our good and it's in Jesus name to pray these things and everyone said, amen. Amen. So church, if I give you one thing for you to mull over on this day, as we look at this passage, it would be this. The beauty of friendship is found in how much it embodies the gospel. The beauty of friendship is found in how much it embodies the gospel. Now I'm sure you probably know, and maybe we'll see here today, that there may be some friendships that unwittingly, unknowingly have similarities to the gospel. They're just not maybe rooted in the gospel. But I'm hoping that as we see this play out in our passage, that you will find friendships rooted in the gospel. Because when you do, then you'll be able to see some of the beautiful things about friendship that our passage points out. And here's what we're going to be looking at today. The beauty of friendship is that it makes the world a better place, like the gospel. Second thing we'll look at is the beauty of friendship is that it reminds us that we're not alone, like the gospel. And third thing we'll look at here this morning is that the beauty of friendship is that it brings us someone who cares for us spiritually, say it with me now, like the gospel. The beauty of friendship is... that it makes the world a better place, like the gospel that it reminds us that we're not alone, like the gospel that it brings us someone who cares for us spiritually, like the gospel 1. The beauty of friendship is that it makes the world a better place. So let's jump right into it. The beauty of friendship is that it makes the world a better place. Please keep your Bibles open in front of you. Let's look at verse 21 together. It says, Paul writes and says this, he says, Confident of your obedience, I write to you, knowing that you will do even more than I say. Okay, so the goodness of good friendships, I'm telling you, will spill out into the world. The goodness of good friendships will spill into the world and they will make the world a better place. This is the difference between friendships and cliques. Let's talk about this for a second here. See what cliques do, and it's such human nature to get into cliques, but cliques, what they do is they exclude other people. And then they make you feel bad about not being part of that little group. But a friendship, a friendship is something that is not only to be admired, but friendships make the world a better place. I'm sure you probably guessed that as a youth pastor, I saw this time and time again. You have youth group and youth group gathers. Some kids in They circle up and they form a click. And no one can get in to that little circle because it's inward focused. But every now and again, you get a group of friends and Jesus was at the center. And when Jesus is at the center, he makes you turn around and look outward. He looks, makes you look out to those who are lost and by themselves and to bring them in. And every now and again, that youth group, you'd have a group of friends who weren't inward focused, but they would have eyes to see who was excluded, who was lonely, and they would embrace them and bring them in. That's what a good friendship does. It looks to bring others in. In our passage, in our Bible passage, Paul is saying, he's essentially saying to his friend Philemon, he says, I know that you will free Onesimus. I know that you will do the right thing, but not only this, but I know the blessing that you'll give to Onesimus will expand beyond him. Did you see this in our passage? Paul says to Philemon, look at this key phrase here, you will do even more. What Paul is laying on thick for Philemon to do, Paul even goes on, he doubles down and says, you will do even more than this. Paul knew this about his friend. Church, I could point out to some great friendships that impacted the world. I could point to J.R.R. Tolkien and his friendship with C.S. Lewis or Mark Twain and Nikola Tesla. We could talk about Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton. We could talk about Doc Holliday and Wyatt Earp. We could talk about the Winter Soldier and Captain America. Or we could continue to talk about Frodo and Samwise. And while there have been some great friendships that had massive impact on the world, we don't need to look elsewhere. What we see is a friendship before us that has changed the world throughout the generations. What we have in this passage is a friendship that made the world a better place because God in his infinite wisdom Recorded and kept alive this this letter between Paul and Philemon which has gone on to echo through the ages showing each new generation the beauty of the gospel and the beauty of friendship. The question I think we need to ask ourselves is kind of the obvious question here is - Did Philemon actually release on this. Well, the truth is we don't actually know. The Bible doesn't say there's not really clues elsewhere in Scripture to point to this. Although I'll just say this for my my own thoughts. I will say that the fact that this story is in the Bible is proof enough for me that not only did Philemon release on this, but Philemon did go on to do other amazing things for the kingdom. And actually, if you follow some strains of Christian history and Christian tradition, one Christian tradition says that Onesimus was in fact freed, and not only that, but he went on to be a leader in the early church. See, Paul and Philemon's friendship goes to show us the power of the gospel and how it creates godly friends who go on to do more good in this world. Gospel good. And if you have a good friend, you know that they will make you a better person. Otherwise, are they really a good friend? As opposed to maybe just a good acquaintance? Yes, I have friends and connections who are not Christians, but my closest friends are the ones who are gonna draw me closer to Christ. Not to the exclusion of other people, but I'd say rather to their benefit. Because the more Christ-like I am, when I surround myself with Christ-like men who make me more Christ-like, that's a better friend I will be, that's a greater impact I'll have on the world. And just as an aside, I have a friend who is not a follower of Jesus, and I'm sharing the gospel with him, and I'll just ask you to pray for H, if you don't mind, in my conversations with him. But the beauty of godly friendships is that they make the world a better place, just like the gospel does. The gospel makes the world a better place when Christians get out there, open our mouths, and actually share it. The gospel is that Jesus Christ laid down his life for his friends, so that we would have an example to follow. Do you remember, like, for those of you who went to Sunday school growing up, do you remember this, that story, very famous story in the Bible where Jesus actually gets down on his hands and knees and washes the feet of his disciples, of his friends? You guys know that story? Remember what he said afterwards? Remember what he said? I love this. John 13, verse 15, Jesus says this, after he gets on his hands and knees, the God of all creation bends down, gets his hands dirty, washes the feet, the stinking dirty feet of his friends, he washes their feet, and then he gets up and he says this, he says, I have given you an example that you also should do just as I have done for you. John 13:15 15 For I have given you an example, that you also should do just as I have done to you. This begs the question, Christians in the house, have you ever washed another person's feet? Not symbolically, I mean actually. For those of you who follow Jesus, have you ever washed another person's feet? I will tell you now, I have, and it is an incredibly humbling experience. The more humble you are, the more Christ-like you are. If Jesus did it, we should do it. If you've offended someone, wash their feet. If you love someone, wash their feet. I don't think Jesus was kidding when he actually did that and then got up and told us to do the same. Yes, symbolically do that, of course, but I think we actually have to do it. It's a beautiful thing that our Lord has done. I think we should do the same. This reminds us that the beauty of friendship is that it makes the world a better place when people are humbled and love one another. It makes the world a better place just like the gospel. Because the Bible here, let me tell you, the scriptures, the gospel does not just tell us to do the right thing. It does not just tell us to do the good thing. The gospel tells us to do the godly thing. And that is different than the world's approach. We're called to do the godly thing. The second thing is that the beauty of friendship is that it reminds us that we're not alone. 2. The beauty of friendship is that it reminds us that we're not alone. Like the gospel, Paul goes on to write, please look in your Bibles at verse 22, 22 to 24. Paul writes this. He says at the same time, prepare a guest room for me for. I'm hoping that through your prayers, I will be graciously given to you. Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus, sends his greetings. And so do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, and Luke, my fellow workers." You see here, I love this, Paul talks about his friend group. Paul talks about his posse. Paul's talking about his squad here. And what's he called them fellow workers. They are co-labors for the kingdom. They do mission together. We've talked about this here. You want to, you want to have a friendship forged in the gospel, serve together, go on mission together, lead a high school Bible study together. You will see amazing thing happen when you are fellow workers for God's kingdom. Ministry doing ministry together has a way to bind us together that playing sports and video games could never do. This is why I think making and having friends at church is such a value and such a benefit to our lives. Not only do we get to sit on the same preaching and process it together, we get to worship together and we get to serve together. Because having friends in the church community gives us a constant, a weekly reminder that we're not alone. I get it. We're busy people. We're doing everything all the time. How often do you get together with friends? Well, when you're part of a church community and you have friends at church, you're getting together at least once a week. And I think that's a beautiful thing. I happen to think there's great value in seeing people at church and this notion that we quote only see people at church. For me, that does not diminish friendship. Rather, it raises it. It makes a value for going to church and have it part of our life. I've said it before, we know, we know the church is not this building. This building is where the church meets. We fully recognize that. And also God has given us this place here at 6950 Cherry Valley and when you walk into this place and see these people, yes, we want it to feel like home. We want when you walk in, no matter what your life was like the week before, we want this to feel like you can kind of unload. This is a place to be encouraged and loved, challenged, yes, but be reminded of the power of the gospel to overcome. We want you to have family here. We want you to have friends here. Friends in our church community gives us a constant, at least a weekly reminder that we're not alone, and we're not alone just like the gospel reminds us and the gospel is that Jesus Christ died for our sins and in the greatest miracle there ever was Jesus Christ rose again from the grave and for 40 days after that he continued to minister with his friends and he continued to fellowship with them and one of the things he was doing during those 40 days is he was preparing them for a continued mission after he himself returned to heaven and right before Jesus returned to heaven, he said this to his friends. He said, go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. What did Jesus just do here? He just told them to do ministry together. He just told them to go on mission together. Why? Well, because we're going to see people come to Jesus. But I think also in some some way underneath, he's also saying, because that's how you'll stay together. That's how you'll continue to be united when you're united around the gospel. And then Jesus says this last thing recorded in the epic gospel of Matthew. It brings me to tears every time I read this. And then Jesus says this, he says, and behold, I am with you always to the very end of the age because our Savior doesn't leave us. He stays with us. We are never alone. This is the gospel that Jesus saves us and he never leaves us. Just like God promised way back in the Old Testament. Go back to Deuteronomy. Deuteronomy 31 says, it's the Lord who goes before you and He will be with you. He will not leave you or forsake you. Do not be, do not, do not fear or be dismayed. The beauty of friendship is that it reminds us that we're never alone, just like the gospel does. 3. The beauty of friendship is that it brings us someone who cares for us spiritually like like the gospel. And finally, the beauty of friendship is that it brings us someone who cares for us spiritually like like the gospel. And then we're going to look at the very last verse, as we've been journeying through this passage together, this whole book together, the last verse, this is how Paul closes it, he says this, the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirits. We've been using this as our benediction, we will again today, but let's look at it real quick. Grace, Lord Jesus Christ, your spirit. Firstly, grace. If you are a follower of Jesus, you better have the definition of grace on the tip of your tongue because it is the essence of your salvation. What is grace? Grace is how we are saved. Grace is getting what we do not deserve. You want to know what you deserve? You deserve condemnation. You deserve separation. You deserve eternal damnation for the sins we've committed against an internally holy God. But for those who follow Jesus, that's not because we deserve it, we definitely don't. It's because God is infinitely good and in his mercy and in his justice, he poured out his wrath upon his son, not upon us, who took our place on the cross so that our penalty could be paid for. And then, when we place our faith in Jesus, God, even though he does not have to, even though we do not deserve it, God gives us grace and welcomes us to His table and into our heavenly home to be with Him. Grace is how we are saved. We are saved by grace, through faith in Jesus. When you place your faith in Jesus, that doesn't earn you salvation. It's through grace that we are given it, and it's through the Lord Jesus who stands in the gap who takes our punishment the punishment we deserve to give us the salvation that we don't deserve and that's called grace grace is at the core of the gospel and it's through Jesus so Paul is saying to Philemon and by extension the Holy Spirit saying to us through this word this last line the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, be with your spirits. Church, don't read past your Bible. Read every word. Here's what Paul's saying here. Your spirit is your core being, it's your essence. Meaning the grace that we find only through Jesus needs to totally encapsulate us. It totally envelops our entire spirit, inside and out. Everything about us needs to be about grace. Grace be with your spirit. Not the grace of the Lord Jesus be with you when you're feeling down. Not the grace of the Lord Jesus be with you when you decide to show up for church. Not the grace of the Lord Jesus be with you when you're feeling good about yourself, the grace of the Lord Jesus be with your spirits. It is who you are all the time. You are ever being reminded that every breath you take is an act of grace of God who does not have to give it to you. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with your spirit. It is your identity. It's who you are. It's everything about you all the time. Today we're going to celebrate communion. Communion is a physical reenactment of a spiritual truth that is found only in the gospel, that as we eat the bread and drink the cup, we are receiving into our physical bodies a representation of what has happened truly spiritually. And it's this, the grace of the Lord Jesus is with our spirit. When you enact this out physically, understand the amazing spiritual thing that is happening as you sit at the table of the King. And our hope and our encouragement in all this is found in the friend we have in Jesus. So what about our friends? Well, as you know, in each message in this series, we've been ending with a friendship challenge. And so let me give you the last one for this series, and it's this. In an unfriendly world, look to the gospel to find and be a true friend. My prayer is that you have friendships forged by a common faith in the gospel, in Christ Jesus, as we embrace his message together. Friends that encourage your spirit with the grace that's only found through Christ. And I really hope that this church is a place where you can find those friendships. And so I wanna leave you with four things to challenge you on finding friends at church. So making friends in the gospel. 1. Consider Membership Number one, here's what I'd say. Consider membership. If you've been attending peace for a while, make a commitment. In fact, we have membership classes starting next week. You can go to our website, you can go to our welcome booth, Talk with Chelsea, and get some information. Because here's the thing, if you become a member, we want you to know what you're signing up for. So come to our membership class. You can find out more about our philosophy and theology of a church, ask some good questions. Just because you take a membership doesn't mean you have to become a member. But let me just step back and say this, before some of you consider membership, maybe what some of you need to consider is regular, consistent church attendance. Mmm, I heard that. Did you know in our day and age that when people fill out surveys, do you know what qualifies as regular church attendance nowadays? Once a month. You go to church once a month, you're considered a regular church attender. That's pathetic. That's pathetic. Don't sink to that level. Do not sink to that level. I guarantee your faith and the world needs much more than that. So consider regular church attendance or if you're already there I'd say consider membership. Again, we have classes starting next week. I'd love for you to join it. Just find out more about who we are, some of our theological distinctives. 2. Start Serving Second thing, start serving. If you are a Christian, God has given you a gift to use to build his church, to build his kingdom. If you're not using it, try to justify that one before God. If you are a Christian, you are meant to be serving. Because if you are a Christian, the Bible says that the Holy Spirit's given you a gift to be used in service of the common good for one another. So again, let's talk about where you could possibly start serving. Because again, serving together is a great way to forge friendships, especially in our larger setting. 3. Join a Community Group Next, join a community group. These are smaller groups that meet off campus throughout the week, throughout the month. Great way to deepen friendships and connections. Again, you can talk with Chelsea at the Welcome Booth or we've made things really easy for you. You can go to our website, go to peacechurch.cc/connect . Fill out some just real basic information, then we will follow up with you and help you figure out how to take the next step. But here's the thing, I've said this before, we're not a cult, we're not going to make you do anything, but we're going to invite you to do something awesome. And so let me leave you with one more. I said four, there's three up there, let me give you one more. Making friends in the gospel, when you come to church, let's end with this, simply start talking to people. 4. Start talking to people at church A lot of you are real critical of the next generation because they only want to text. Do you talk to people? So guess what we're gonna do now? Y'all got name tags? Who's the rebels in here that put the name tag on the left side of their chest? I just, okay. Oh, a few of you. Okay. So here's what we're gonna do. Hold on, hold on. I ain't giving you permission yet. We are gonna end our time in communion. We're gonna end our time in communion, but here's what we're gonna do. You're gonna talk to those around you. I'm gonna give you a question to start with. Everyone needs to ask this question so no one's embarrassed. How long you been coming to peace? And here's the thing, you don't get to sit down for that. Let's all stand up. Let's all stand up. Take a few moments and talk with people around you.

PODCAST That's a Good Question Baptism, Homosexuality, and More: Examining Secondary Issues December 12, 2023 Jon Delger & Cheyenne Werner Listen to this Episode Jon Hey everyone, welcome to That's a Good Question, a podcast of Peace Church. This is a place where we answer questions about the Christian faith in plain language. I'm Jon, I serve as a pastor at Peace Church and I also get to serve as the weekly host of this show. You can always submit questions to peacechurch.cc/questions . We'd love to hear those questions and we're excited to answer some today. Today I am here with Cheyenne. Cheyenne Hello. Jon Cheyenne is our Women's Ministry Director here at Peace Church, does an awesome job of leading and teaching that ministry and excited to get to talk about some fun topics today. Cheyenne I'm excited to be here. Jon Producer Mitchell, do you have a question for us today? Mitchell Yep, here we go. Mitchell How hard should Christians fight for secondary and non-salvation issues when it comes to someone's salvation or even church unity, such as a stance on homosexuality, ordaining women or evolution or things like that? How hard should Christians fight for secondary and non-salvation issues when it comes to someone's salvation or even church unity, such as a stance on homosexuality, ordaining women or evolution or things like that? Jon Yeah, great question. So I think we have to take that in a couple of pieces. So they bring up that there is this idea of secondary issues. So there's some secondary issues in the church and in theology. So let's maybe start by talking about what the secondary issues are versus first issues. Cheyenne Sure. So first issues, I think they, in the question, already defined it has to do with salvation. Yeah. Beyond that, I mean, it's the essential, right, doctrines that make you a believer or not a believer. So, and then secondary would be still matters of urgent importance that don't necessarily make you saved or unsaved, but that definitely have to do with your sanctification, with our sanctification and walking in holiness and obedience to the Lord has to do with our Bible literacy and how we're reading and interpreting scripture, which can have an effect on all different areas of church life and of our own faith, right? I guess that's where I first go as far as dividing first and second issues. Is that how you would also break it down? Jon Totally. So first issues are things that, that's what makes you a Christian or not a Christian, right? So belief in the gospel, was Jesus the son of God? Did he die on a cross for our sins? Do you have to have faith to be saved? Do you believe in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God? Some of those things are things that have just always defined somebody as a Christian or not a Christian. That's kind of first issues thing. And so I think the person asking the question, if I remember right, some of the topics they said I think are rightly categorized as not first issues. You can be a saved, born-again Christian and fall on what you and I might call the wrong side of those issues. But we're not saying you're not a Christian, but we would say that you're maybe not following parts of scripture quite properly. Now, I want to also jump in and say, unfortunately, I've had a lot of people come to me over the years and say, well, Pastor Jon, that's a secondary issue. You know, we shouldn't talk about that. That's not a big deal. And what I want to say is I would call that like biblical minimalism. And that's not what we want. So It's true that somebody can believe the wrong thing about some of these topics and still be a saved Christian We can call them brothers and sisters in Christ and yet our goal isn't to just follow like the minimum of what we can believe From scripture. We want to follow the maximum of what the Bible tells us Mitchell Well the way that I've always heard it was that there's heresy and there's error right when you're on the wrong side of these things, both of them are bad, but one of them is you're no longer a Christian, right? So error is still not good, right? Going along your same idea, we're not going for the minimum, but yeah. Cheyenne So part of what you're saying too is that there's more than two categories even, right? That there's maybe even more of a spectrum somewhat, but that the secondary issues are still that side of the spectrum is worth contending for. And contending for not just so that we're right, but really it's also contending for so that we're not putting ourselves in danger because it has to do with life and godliness. Jon What the Bible says is not just true, but it's good for us. Cheyenne Yes, right, right. And so that is, I think, why it is important to contend for these secondary issues like what were mentioned. So I don't remember, did you specifically name what those issues were that you had in this question? That they rounded up? Jon The listener question did. Mitchell Yep, so they mentioned homosexuality, women in ministry, or ordaining women, evolution, things like that is what they said. Jon So, shall we jump into one of those? Sure. So Cheyenne, I feel like this is a great conversation for us to have. Let's talk about women who serve, lead, or teach in ministry. I don't know if you want me to start or if you want to jump into that, but here at Peace Church, we look at the Bible and we look at passages like Ephesians 4 and 1st Timothy 2 and the beginning of Genesis and other places all throughout scripture, we see this as a not just a couple of texts, but Genesis through Revelation, the picture that scripture paints of men and women that we are equal in value. We're both made in God's image and yet we are distinct in role. God has made men and women different and he's given us different roles in the home and in the church. And so people have different perspectives on that, but that's where we come down. And so that plays out in a few different ways in how we do church also. We believe that women absolutely have the gifts of leading and teaching. And yet we think scripture does speak to where those gifts should play out, how that plays out in relationship to adult men in specific. And so, for example, for us at Peace Church, we would say that the role of pastor and elder is something that God has called men uniquely to. Preaching on a Sunday morning. We'd say that's something that God's called men uniquely to and yet Cheyenne you have an amazing gift and ministry of doing leadership and teaching in our church. Do you want to just talk about your thoughts on that? Cheyenne Yeah. So I mean, I think that men and women are both gifted with the spiritual gifts, which includes teaching and includes leadership and administration. But like you said, there's a created order both for marriages and for the church leadership. And so it's modeled, you know, it's modeled both ways for each other of what that order is. So it doesn't mean that as a woman, I can't use my gifts for teaching or for leadership or that other women in the church shouldn't use theirs. It just means we want to find the right ways to be using those. And so we use those in women's ministry, women teaching women, Titus talks about that, that the older women, and doesn't just mean by age older, but the more mature women who are spiritually more knowledgeable, maybe should be using their gifts to teach and mentor the younger ones. I think a lot of times in churches, it becomes a lot of focus on the negative of what women can't do and how restrictive that is. But we're not making like, we're not making this up just to create a, I don't know, a macho boys club here, right? It's about believing what the Bible says. And like you said, like we were even saying before, as we were talking about secondary issues, it's about believing that the Bible does have what's best in mind for us. So... Jon Right. I've said before that, like, especially when I was in seminary, it would have been easier, it would have been more popular to be on the other side of this issue, but that's not what we do it for. We do it because we look at the Bible and we're trying to be obedient to the scriptures. So, we have what we believe that the Bible clearly teaches as truth. This is God's design for us. We would say that's what's good for us. Personally, as a pastor, I've served in two other denominations where we had, I worked with fellow pastors who were on the other side of this issue who believe differently. And like we've been saying, I would say that they are saved Christians. They believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior. You know, he was the son of God. He died for their sins. He rose again. They believe those things. They were saved. And yet, I'd say they were living in disobedience to scripture on this issue. Yeah, that was you would say about that. Cheyenne Yeah, yeah, I would, I would agree with that. There, you know, not every church probably has the opportunities that we do have here for peace. But, I don't know, as a women's ministry director, that's something that I'm really passionate about is trying to create spaces where women can, can use their gifts so that it doesn't feel like they're being excluded from anything. There's, there's all kinds of opportunities for women to use their gifts and teaching and I would hope that that would be something that all churches are looking to and pouring time into also. Yeah Jon So I think to one part of the question was how hard should we fight? Is that right? How should how hard should we fight about an issue like this? Yeah, I was just gonna ask, you know Imagine there's a woman in a congregation in a church situation who says I feel called to this, what would be our response? How hard would we fight against that? Or would we just say, oh, no, let's let this happen? So a woman who feels called to be an elder, maybe, say. Cheyenne OK, well, I think that if we are believing that the Bible says the elders should be men, then I think we should stick to that, not compromising that. Because what does that say about, what does that say about our hermeneutics? What does that say about our belief in the Bible if we let go of that? Now, is it wrong for someone to go to a church where not everybody agrees on that? I don't know, Bob. I don't know. What would you say, Jon? Jon I think that sometimes in certain communities, you might not have as many opportunities or as many options and have to make some concessions as to what church you're going to be a part of and some of the theological beliefs that they take on secondary issues, right? Right. And you're never, I think it's pretty much true that almost no two Christians are ever going to agree 100% on every issue So you do have to choose there are there are issues that you have to be okay with hey We don't see this eye to eye and that's okay Um, there's some that you shouldn't be okay with but you do have to be okay with some so now honestly here at peace we are very Clear about where we're at on important issues. We teach them in our membership class. We do share with people Hey, this is where we're at on this. That's not changing because it's what the Bible says. And so if you're not comfortable with that or if you can't joyfully follow leaders that lead this way, then you really shouldn't be a member of this church. So we say that and we mean that very seriously. Now, like you said, there are some places that maybe just don't have church options that believe the biblical thing on this. So yeah, I mean, I've been a Christian in churches that don't believe the right things on this. Yeah. And so you can do that and you try to lovingly, joyfully submit to the leaders above you and yet also try to share truth wherever you have the opportunity. And so, so yeah, I think you absolutely can do that. It's not ideal. You know, if you have a different choice, that's great. It's definitely not ideal. Cheyenne Yeah. And what would you say are like some of the dangers of compromising on this kind of issue when you're in a situation like that? Jon I think the dangers are, number one, you're drifting away from God's good design. And I think we can't always see all of the negative results of that. I think usually at first you think, wow, I'm just bending a little bit, right? I'm just bending a little bit and it'll be fine. It'll be okay. And you don't notice the consequences right away. But I think over, and we could talk a long time, I think, about some of the effects of egalitarianism on the church at large over the last 50 years, especially. But yeah, I think that's the thing is when you start to bend away from God's good design, it does have consequences, even if you don't realize it just yet. And so I've had this experience before. So a woman comes to me and says, I feel called to preach on a Sunday morning. Now, first of all, no matter what gender you are, if you come and say that to me, I'm going to say, well, you know what, there's some discernment that needs to happen here. We need to there's some maybe some training that needs to happen. It doesn't matter your gender or your age. If you come to me and say you think you should be preaching on Sunday morning, I've got some other questions and things we're going to talk about. But if, but specifically, if a woman says, I feel called to the world elder, or I feel called to teach in a group of men and women together, then I'm going to say, hey, you know what, I would love to sit down with you and talk about a couple of Bible passages. I'd love to do some Bible study with you. I'd love to connect you to some other women in our church who would love to kind of explain and think through what the Bible says about this and where some awesome opportunities to do ministry is. If you are gifted and called to teach or to lead, then great. There are places for you to use those gifts, but it might not be these first couple places that you're thinking of. Cheyenne I feel like, okay, one of the words that I heard you say a lot and that we've been saying a lot is calling. And I feel like a lot of time that word gets used when it comes to things like secondary issues and as a way of trumping what the Bible says and being able to kind of manipulate the interpretation to say, oh, well, this was cultural. I feel called to this. And I mean, this could be a whole nother podcast episode about calling. But where does that come from? That can be so subjective. You could say you're called to anything. And that's not necessarily true. We're called to something objective, and that is to live for Christ and to believe that what he says is true, that it trumps our feelings, even if those feelings might be tied to some kind of faith or spiritual moment or impression that we have. And so I think we got to be careful about that and letting the calling direct how we're interpreting these doctrinal issues. Jon Yeah, there are some, the Bible uses the word calling, there are some objective callings, but then there's also like the subjective sense of, you know, for example, I believe I'm called to be a pastor. So that is a sort of subjective, I don't have a chapter and verse that says Jon is called to be a pastor. It's kind of a subjective thing. It also won't go against Scripture. Correct. Yes. So our subjective calling can never be against what Scripture says. And then also there's some discernment process even beyond that, using Scripture, but then also friends, family, people who know you well, your pastors, your elders, to help you think through a calling. I remember actually I've one time had a young guy come to me and he was in Bible college at the time and he said to me, he said, Jon, I believe I am called to speak to really large crowds of people. I remember saying, interesting. I've heard you teach before. I actually think that you do have the gift of teaching this whole idea of large crowds. And he was saying, I mean, I think he's explicitly said like hundreds of thousands of people. And I said, well, maybe. And that's awesome. The Lord might do that through you. But I don't know. Let's wait and see. You know, why don't you use the teaching that you've got? But that's where calling gets kind of subjective. And it's more like, well, let's wait and discerning and be see. But the most important thing, like you just said, is your subjective calling can never go against what scripture objectively says. Mitchell So can I ask a question? Teeing up off of that? So what's the difference between something like women's ordination and then something like homosexuality? Would we put those in different tiers? How would we address those things? Cheyenne I would put them in different tiers. I think women's ordination is one where there's a little bit more leeway on that one. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be complementarian, but if I was in a community where my only choices were egalitarian churches, I think that I could faithfully be a part of a congregation that believed that. Now, when it comes to homosexuality, I don't. I think that that's a hard line that we draw and that we contend for because that is, you know, you want to give the most priority to the most clarity and the most urgency that Scripture gives it. And Scripture has a lot of pretty, pretty clear, pretty explicit and dangerous, like words of warning when it comes to homosexuality. And we love all of our neighbors, right? No matter what gender identity they would like to choose, no matter what sexual orientation they feel they have. But when it comes to how we are, what we are believing about them as a person, because it comes down to personhood, right? That's an essential doctrine. Jon Well, yeah, and I think it goes to an X, I think the homosexuality issue takes it to a next level because you're explicitly calling not sin what the Bible calls sin. I think that takes things to a different level. You're telling somebody, and just to lay it out, actually, I want to back up and just name a couple of things. So we used a couple of, I think they're probably 10-letter words. So complementarian, by the way, that word means, believes that men and women are complementary to each other. They have complementary skills and abilities and things. So equal in value, distinct in role is usually what that word complementarianism means. We use that real quickly. Egalitarianism is the opposite of that, believing that men and women are essentially interchangeable, that they not only are equal in value, but also equal in role, that there is no distinction in their roles. But to jump back to the homosexuality issue, so let's, let me just kind of fill in some gaps of what we would say the Bible clearly teaches is that homosexual behavior is sin. There are people who live in our world that have same-sex attraction and will have to battle with that throughout the course of their life. So we're not saying that to have certain feelings, to have certain attractions, doesn't make you in a state of perpetual sin that you can never be saved from or anything like that. You have a choice. If you are same-sex attracted, then you get to choose, am I going to live a homosexual lifestyle that the Bible calls sin, or am I going to live a different lifestyle, whether that be celibacy or heterosexuality, that the Bible endorses, embraces? Yeah, so that's kind of just to give a sense of where we're at. And so, yeah, like we're saying, that's a different tier level issue because you're calling sin not sin. The Bible has some pretty strong words about that. Cheyenne And even going as far, you know, with homosexuality and gender identity too, you're also saying that God's design, that his created design for personhood is not correct. And so it's a much bigger, much deeper issue there. But I like what you were saying, too, about just how it relates to whether a person can be redeemed, can be saved, whether they're... So we've talked about some things that the Bible seems to be pretty clear on. What about baptism? Jon That's a great one. I'll start, if that's okay. Yeah, that's fine. So, I'm, as a pastor at Peace Church, we believe in infant baptism. We believe that God has a covenantal design for the family and that babies should be baptized as a part of the covenant family. But I went to a Baptist seminary, and actually, I was baptized as an adult, not a kid. I would say I was Baptist for most of my life, even though I was going to reform churches, probably not most of my life anymore, but up to a certain point, I know, right? Up to a certain point, I was baptistic in my thinking. I thought adult baptism was the only way to go, that babies shouldn't be baptized. Now I'm on the opposite side of that. So just to give you some background, I would say I have probably more Baptist friends than I do infant baptism friends. So just to kind of paint a picture of where I'm at. So I would say that baptism is a much lower down issue. I'd call that third or fourth tier issue. I'd say that there are Christians who are faithful to the Bible on both sides of that issue. I have a very clear sense of what I think the Bible teaches about this, but I also see where the Bible is not as clear as I think it is on these other issues we've talked about as it is about baptism. Cheyenne Yeah, I agree. I, because I both have really strong arguments. It can be, I think that there's a faithful way to read scripture both ways, even though I do fall on one side of it. I was gonna say. I was just gonna say also with baptism, I do think that one of the things with baptism that we just need to hold as important as making God big. And so I think that that is just the one risk there that I think that there is with adult adult baptism is a tendency to make it about us and not to make it about God. But I would agree with you that it's a third or fourth tier issue. So a little story if you don't want to, you don't want to use this, you don't have to, but my little story. So my husband is a fourth grade teacher and they always raise salmon in the classroom. They grow them from eggs. And so they get to like get the eggs in DNR and see the eggs hatch and then see these little salmon grow from. Jon No way, that's awesome. Cheyenne I know. Well, last year, they had one salmon that grew with a weirdly deformed head, and the kids called him Chomper because he had a major overbite and looked a little interesting. One day, one of the kids was like, they're eating Chomper. And my husband was like, no, one of the things about salmon is they are herbivores, that they don't eat meat at all. And so he went over to look up and sure enough, the salmon were eating chomper. And so they were literally biting his head off. The reason that I bring this up is because when it comes to these issues, we can sometimes contend for the faith in a way that we're biting each other's heads off. What a great, great way to make that point. And I just think that we still need to have grace with people. Galatians 5, 13 through 15 says, For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters, only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another. Jon What a great analogy. Cheyenne Think about Chopper. I like that. Jon That's a great way to conclude. We want to hold to the truth with lots of passion and zeal, and yet we also want to passionately love our brothers and sisters in Christ. And so we've got to, it's truth in love, right? That's the Christian life. We're supposed to have truth in love, and both of those things are critical and important. Awesome. Hey, thanks so much for being here, Cheyenne. Cheyenne Thanks for having me. Jon Thanks, everybody, for listening. If you have questions, always peacechurch.cc/questions . Have a great week.

PODCAST That's a Good Question Divine Design: How God Saves Us From Hell January 30, 2024 Jon Delger & Nate Harney Listen to this Episode Jon So Hey everyone, welcome to That's a Good Question, a podcast of Peace Church and a part of Resound Media. You can find more great content for the Christian life and church leaders at resoundmedia.cc . That's a Good Question is a place where we answer questions about the Christian faith in plain language. I'm Jon. I serve as a pastor at Peace Church and I also get to serve as the weekly host of this show. You can always submit questions at peacechurch.cc/questions . And today I am here with Pastor Nate. Nate Hey-o. Jon Great to have you here. Nate Great to be here. Jon We get to follow up today on an episode that we did together back on November 20th of 2023. So if you want to take a look back at that, you don't have to, you won't need that context for this episode, but if you want to, you can check that out. We got a great question about Arminianism. You can look at that episode to hear more about what that is, but we got a lot of questions following up this whole idea of Calvinism and Arminianism, and we'll talk about those words, and we'll talk about scripture. That'll be our primary focus and how these ideas play out, but we want to come back and answer some of those great questions. So that's where we're going today. Sound good? Sounds great. Let's do it. Producer Mitchell, you want to hit us up? Yep, here we go. Mitchell Here is our first question. How do we respond to people who say that Calvinism means that God doesn't love all people since he chooses some for hell by not electing them for salvation? Is that tied into universalism at all? Jon Yeah, awesome. All right, so real quick, we should try to define these Calvinism, Arminianism, fancy words real quick. So just so everybody knows, those are just kind of categories that people use to talk about different positions as you read the Bible and try to understand some of the tough passages we're going to look at in just a moment. John Calvin is the guy that Calvinism is named after, but really, it's just a way to sort of shorthand refer to an understanding of some different passages of Scripture. Absolutely. Is that what you say? Nate It gives a picture of a high view of the sovereignty of God, His rule and reign, His control over the universe. You brought up John Calvin as one of the original voices that we partner and we characterize this set of beliefs in, even though ultimately we believe it derives originally from the scriptures because we are Calvinist. We want to be clear about that. But in more modern times, someone who popularized it for a new generation via John Piper, you might have heard his name, another John, and I always like, he'll call it big God theology. And that's just the most simple way to say if you're a Calvinist you believe in a big God. And I think that's very simple. I know an Arminian would probably argue that they believe God is big as well, but certainly they would characterize His bigness in smaller ways. And so I think big God theology is a simple, profound way of kind of summing it up. Jon That's a very clever way of saying that. I like that. Yeah, we believe strongly in God's sovereignty, that he's in control, and we believe that when we look at Scripture and see different passages that talk about him planning all things from the beginning, him being in control of all things, all the way into even the human heart, and especially how we think about salvation and how that works is where this comes into play. So the other guy, Jacob Arminius, is the guy who the position Arminianism is named after. So in short, let me tell me if I'm reducing this too much, but to try to summarize each position. An Arminian would say that we have this free will that God does not interfere with, and maybe would say even cannot interfere with, and that we are sort of neutral and get to decide do we trust in Jesus and get saved or not. And as a Calvinist, we would say that actually when somebody preached the gospel to me, this is kind of my shorthand way of just thinking about my own story, is that when the gospel was preached to me and I decided to put my faith in Jesus, it's true that at that moment I decided to put my faith in Jesus, and so I decided to become a Christian and was saved. But really, as I've studied the Bible and as I've reflected and looked back on that moment, I've come to realize, actually, the reason I made that decision was because the Holy Spirit was stirring in my heart even before I decided that. That I was hearing the words of Scripture read or preached, and I was hearing somebody explain them to me, and the Holy Spirit was stirring in my heart, and I was responding to that. And in that way, God was sovereign.He was the one in control. He ultimately moved in my heart before I made some kind of decision. And so, is that too short or is that kind of a... Nate I think that's fair and succinct. Jon Cool. Cool. All right, so with those two things in mind, we want to make this, as always, about the text of Scripture, and so that's where we're going to go. So the question was kind of about how can God love people at the same time be in control of the plan and the execution of the plan for people who end up in hell? How can those two things be true at the same time? So I'd love to start with just a couple of verses, and you guys feel free to add to this, but a couple of verses, just what specific verses are we talking about? I think one that is probably in people's mind is John 3:16, God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. So that verse says that God loves the world, he loves his creation, human beings who he created. Another verse that comes to mind is first Timothy 2 verse 4 This says talking about God and it says who desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth Okay, so the Bible says those two things and at the same time they say this other thing that I think at first glance seems To be contradictory to us is John 6:44 says no one can come to me and this Jesus is speaking. No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him. So sort of clearly saying that the Father, that God must be doing a work in somebody's heart, must be choosing, must be stirring in their heart before they can even put their faith in Jesus. What do you guys want to add to that? Nate I'd just throw the whole chapter of Romans 9 in there. That's the one when you get into this conversation, I think because it's probably the chapter that talks about this at the greatest length. There's times all throughout scripture where I see Calvinist theology, if you think of Ephesians 1, any time where it talks about predestination or election, somehow you got to have a category for that as a Christian. What does that look like then if you believe in a kind of a total free will or like the way you shared how some Armenians would characterize it as we have the choice to choose God or not and he either doesn't interfere with it or he can't interfere with it. Nate But Romans 9, I'll just read a short section of it and if you've never dug into that chapter, it's definitely worth your time. But I'll just jump in at verse 13 because that's where it starts to get really heated and it refers back to the Old Testament and says, "...as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." I think we should talk about that a little bit. What does that mean? It's pretty strong language. NateEsau I hated. Verse 14 then says, "...what shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means. For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, now this is going back to the time of Moses where right before the exodus when Moses is challenging Pharaoh, think of the plagues in that period of time. The scripture says to Pharaoh, for this very purpose I have raised you up that I might show my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth so then he has mercy on whomever he wills and he hardens whomever he wills so you might remember if you've gotten into those stories in Exodus that throughout the time of the plagues there's times where it talks about Pharaoh hardening his own heart and and closing himself off to the Lord. And then there's times where it very clearly says that God hardens Pharaoh's heart so that he rejects what seems like the right or godly choice and instead turns inward to his own sin and selfish desires and keeps the Israelites in slavery when it's becoming more and more clear every day that God desires for them to be released to the promised land. And so then it just continues on and I won't read the whole chapter but I think it's worth just continuing for a little bit longer. Verse 19 and this is in Romans 9 again says, You will say to me then, why does he, God, still find fault? For who can resist his will? Verse 20 is really important it says, But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, Why have you made me like this? Has the potter no right over the clay, To make out of the same lump One vessel for honourable use, And another for dishonourable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath, And to make known His power, Has endured with much patience Vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, In order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory." And we could keep going from there. It gets into some more specifics on Jews and Gentiles, but I think you start to get the picture if you're listening to that and you haven't heard that scripture before and you're just hearing it now for the first time, you might be thinking, whoa, what in the world am I supposed to do with this? So that, because... And you wouldn't be alone. Many theologians have asked that question over the years. Absolutely. And it does seem to make a very clear, logical, progressive case that, well, we're not going to apologize for this, but that Calvinism is a reality that you must reckon with. I mean, in the same way, Jon, you read some of the key verses that challenge a Calvinist saying, okay, how could it be then, if this is the God we're talking about in Romans, how then 1 Timothy, how do we hear that God desires for all men to be saved if Romans 9 is telling us that's not how he is orchestrating everything out? How would you answer somebody who asked that question about God's desire or his will for all men to be saved. And especially if we take it at face value, I think the question alluded to it, then how does that not refer to not just Arminianism, but universalism? If that's God's desire, how does it not end up becoming reality? Jon It's a great question. So I'll share an answer, and then I'd love to hear you guys' thoughts, too. This is an answer that goes back to, actually, John Calvin and the Institutes, and I've heard o ther great Reformed teachers kind of share this answer as well. I think when we look at Scripture, I think we could talk about two distinct sort of wills of God. We talk about God's will, and I think we can talk about that in at least two different aspects. So, it's been called before God's sovereign will and his moral will. So his sovereign will being sort of everything that happens, right? We say that God is in control. God had a plan from, you know, before creation. So everything that happens, it's within God's will, right? To say that something happens and it's outside of God's will would mean that God was surprised by it or that he wasn't in control of it. He was like, whoa, you know that happened and I didn't plan it or I couldn't stop it. So we read scripture and we say, we can't say that. That's just not true. God's sovereign, he's in control. So on the one hand, everything that happens is within God's will. On the other hand, we know that the Bible says things very clearly like, you shall not murder, and yet people murder, which means that things happen that are outside of God's will or against God's will. So we know that those things are both true at the same time. And so I think what we do then is we say, well, I think scripture can be using God's will and sort of two different aspects or perspectives. On the one hand, everything is inside of God's will, because it happened and because God's in control. On the other hand, God has a very clear moral will. He says, you shall not murder along with plenty of other commandments that he gives us. And yet people violate those every day. And those things are both within the reality of God's plan, and yet they're outside of what God desires to happen in the world. Nate Yeah. No, that is, that's really helpful. And that starts to feel kind of complex when you're talking about these two different kinds of wills, of the everything that happens is a part of God's will in one sense, but then there is this aspect of human responsibility on this other sense. For me, as a pastor and as somebody who's wrestled with this throughout my life, because I've had great interactions and ministry partnership with Calvinists, I've encountered in some of my biblical training and just some of my life those who are Wesleyan or Arminian, who I see their heart for the Lord and their desire to follow the Scriptures. But what it comes down to for me is that there's always going to be this tension here between how do we work out these two components of God's sovereignty and human responsibility, which we see both in the Scriptures. And for me, if I have to put it in its most simple terms, coming back to the big God theology, I think honest Calvinists and honest Arminians feel a tension there and don't think, oh yeah, I have no idea how the other side could ever have any sort of a feelings or beliefs that they do. For me, if I'm simplifying it in my own mind, I think it's unavoidable that there's this tension in the scriptures of the clarity of God's total sovereignty, but also this piece of human responsibility that we have to grapple with. And for me, the reason why I'm a Calvinist and I'm not anything else is because I think the clearest lens through which to interpret scripture is that God is big and people are smaller. It doesn't mean that we're not important. It doesn't mean that we don't play a role in all this. It doesn't mean that we're not held responsible and accountable. But I just, I cannot read the scriptures in any place, any book, any chapter, and walk away with people being big and God being small. And that might sound like a gross oversimplification to some, but for me, I've been on this journey and to be honest, there's been a part of my human selfishness where I haven't wanted to admit that Calvinism makes the most sense of the scriptures because in some ways it feels – there's aspects of it in our modern times that feels like a harder position to articulate and hold to because It can be so easily mischaracterized that god is this big mean bully who Makes all of our choices for us and then holds us responsible for something that we didn't even get to decide ourselves And that's that's a really easy mischaracterization of it and in our modern individualistic Western society. I was just going to say that, especially for Americans. We struggle with that. To say, oh, you don't have as much freedom as you might think. And even I've noticed, I grew up in churches that would say that they were Calvinistic and still when the problem with evil would come up in the conversation, how can a sovereign God who's totally in control, all-powerful, all-knowing. How can he allow evil to exist in the world if he's in control and he's good? And even in my very Reformed Calvinistic churches, the answer that was the easiest, most palatable answer was, well, that's human free will. It's just God, you know, God's hands are tied. He would love to step in and make everything good, but he can't because our free will gets in his way. And even in Calvinistic settings, we would kind of use that as an easy conversation ender, just tie up a clean bow on it. The problem is, is that paints a picture of a God who, number one, is not the God we read about in the Bible, so that's problematic. small, weak, God that can't really help you very much. Well, if you have to say God's hands are tied at any point in your argument, that's probably not gonna work. No. Jon We love C.S. Lewis, but I mean, that's the problem of pain, his book, The Problem of Pain. I mean, that's kind of the argument he makes for evil, and I just don't think it works. Nate It can feel good in the short term, but if you really think about it, it's a terrifying thought to think that God, there's something more powerful than God, and that thing is evil. Nate Right. Jon Yes. Yeah, it's one thing to sort of say, oh man, this doesn't feel quite right, that God would be in control while these bad things happened. But what about the alternative? Yeah, you're right. God had no control. The world was out of control, and God couldn't do anything about it. That's a truly terrifying thought. Nate Yeah, absolutely. Jon Mitch, you want to add anything to this? Mitchell Well, I just had a question. You touched on universalism a little bit, but is there a connection between universalism and Arminianism? What is that, like, when they bring up universalism, I guess, what is that? Jon That's probably the better first question. Yeah, good question. So, universalism is the basic idea that everybody goes to heaven, that God is just a loving God. And so, yeah, no matter how much bad you do, God loves everybody, and so universally, everybody's going to heaven. Mitchell So, I guess the question would be, what's the problem with that? Why is that something that we would reject? Jon Yeah, the first clearest answer is that the Bible very much says the opposite of that. God is a loving God, and yet he's also a God of justice and we would in fact say that you can't have love without justice God is a loving and good God Because he punishes evil now the good news of the gospel is that Jesus came and took that Punishment on our behalf so that we could have eternal life, but God is not good. You know, we would look at Human court systems if a judge did not punish evil, that'd be a really bad thing. That'd be unjust, you know, we'd get rid of him, there'd be outcry. You have to punish evil. That's part of the nature of goodness. So for God to be good and loving and just, he has to punish evil.But Jesus came and took that in our place so that we can have eternal life. So universalism lacks justice. It lacks—I think it misses the key attributes that have to be true for God to be good and righteous. Nate Absolutely. And those are the clear theological, biblical reasons. Even just practically, I could hear someone saying, well, what does it hurt? Isn't that a better message to the world? It feels more uplifting, it feels more open and accepting. But it's actually the opposite. If what we believe is actually true, if what the Bible teaches is actually the way reality functions. And I remember having a conversation with a guy who he was trying to explain to me that he was a Christian but not a traditional Christian, and I asked him what he meant by that, and he said, well, I hope the stuff the Bible says is true, but I just don't believe in Jesus and if you haven't received his forgiveness and his grace, then you better hope that it's not true, because the Bible is very clear that not everyone just gets into heaven because God's a nice guy. The Bible's clear about heaven and how salvation plays a role in that and what our faith in Jesus, how that determines that. And so, practically, while universalism might sound nice and friendly, if what the Bible says is true, then it's a very insidious thing to tell somebody who's in danger that they're not. Jon Right. And we can also go down, this could be a long rabbit trail, but I'll just, if you're thinking about this, ask yourself the question, if you're thinking about universalism, if that sounds attractive to you, let me just ask you a question. Would it be good if Hitler were in heaven? Yeah, because that's what you got to, that's part of the practical reality of what you got to grapple with, is you're saying no matter how evil you were on this earth, and whether or not somebody paid for your sins, Jesus on the cross, you get to go to heaven. You know, is that really a good God, and is that really a heaven that you want to be in for eternity? Mitchell Yeah, I guess one more follow-up on Arminianism. Sometimes I think people looking at Calvinism look at it like it's this God that we're painting that's at the gates of heaven like a goalie saying like, nope you can't come in, you can't come in. Do you feel like that's an accurate picture? Or what would you say to someone who says? Jon Yeah, yeah, great question. You're right, you're right. That's the mental image that we tend to get in our minds. But I think a better mental image is more like a bunch of people sort of falling or drowning. And running to a cliff. Or running. Yeah, yeah, that's even better. They're running for their doom and somebody reaches in to save some, because that's the reality, is all of us are running towards hell and God reaches in to save some. It's not as though we're all running towards heaven and he rejects some. All of us are running towards hell and he saves some. Mitchell All right, here's our next question. We've got two questions that are very similar, so I'll read them both. First one is this. Long-time listener, first-time question asker, I've spent most of my time in a Reformed church and have always had lots of questions and doubts about things like Calvinism, God's goodness, hell, and faith in general. I appreciate that Peace Church, this church, is the first church I've attended where questions are allowed and doesn't just pretend like people don't have them. Following the recent episode on Calvinism, I'm curious how someone who is a Calvinist can justify having children due to the fact that they may be responsible for creating a life and a soul that is not predestined to be saved, but instead to eventually be punished eternally in hell. It seems like a risk not worth taking. All right, here's a second question. Why would God create a soul knowing that that soul would go to hell for eternity anyways? What do you guys think? Two really good questions. Yeah, great questions. I think all of us here have kids, so this is a great question for us. Nate Yeah, it's always when you're opening yourself up to the risk of probably the deepest pain you can experience as a parent of seeing your child not follow Jesus and thinking through the implications of that. But we all have kids anyway, and I think one of the reasons why we do that is we know that it's worth it. We know that God deserves the glory. He told us to be fruitful and multiply for a reason. And we have experienced, and I actually can say this as somebody who has, I feel like in various ways, I've kind of struggled through life. And there's been even times where I've wrestled with that kind of depressive state that different Christians, theologians, pastors have written about and wrestled with, going all the way back to the Bible, of saying, I kind of feel like I want to curse the day that I was born. I don't know if I like this whole existence thing. I don't know if life is truly worth it. But the more you grow closer to God and the more you experience the kindness and the grace of Jesus, the more you realize what a blessing life is, even with all the hardships, even with the brokenness of sin. And for me, it's a joy to be able to bring—I have three children—to bring them into the world. I believe it's more of a blessing to be born than to not. aware that there's the possibility that my kids could not follow Jesus. I will say though as a family pastor, and this is where I'm going to get a little reformed here, but I do believe that while God preordains all the ends, He also preordains the means. And I believe if you as a parent, generally, if you follow the wisdom of Scripture and you raise up your child to follow Jesus, I believe more times than not you will see your children become followers of Jesus. That's not a guarantee for every child. We're very clear some of the parenting proverbs that get applied as promises, like if you raise your child up in the way you should go, he will not depart from it. That's a proverb. It's not a promise from from the Lord. And yet, what we see is that through generations of Christian heritage, those children who are raised, not just and told to follow Jesus, but get to see the example of mom and dad, faithfully following Jesus and enjoying the fruit of getting to be a disciple of the Lord, more times than not, they will follow in those steps and the legacy of faith that their parents set forth to them. Again, that's not a guarantee, that's not a promise, but in the Reformed view of how covenant children come into the church, come into the faith, so I would say there's a lot of things right there, but if I'm going to sum it up for that person, I believe God's original call to be fruitful and multiply stands. It's not our job to try to protect our future children from the potential of eternal damnation and thus try to preventatively keep them from existing in the first place. That's not our role. Our role is to multiply and bring more worshipers of God into the world, and I think we can can do that with confidence, knowing that even if the worst possible thing for, in most parents' minds, of my child not following Jesus, even if that were to happen, you can know that God is still good and God is in control. Jon Yeah. Yeah, I think this is one of those instances where people can try to take the concepts of Calvinism and take them beyond what Scripture actually says. They take them to what they think would be the logical conclusions of them but it's not what Scripture says. I mean like you said, Scripture very clearly says be fruitful and multiply. God gave us a mandate to fill the earth with people who follow him and worship him. And so that is in no way contradictory to what God also says about His sovereignty and choosing and things like that. So yeah, we are responsible to fill the earth with kids who worship Jesus. And yeah, it does terribly sadly happen sometimes that there are kids who go astray and don't walk with the Lord. That does happen even to faithful Christian parents. But scripture nowhere says, hey, so don't take the risk. And actually, I mean, even just to play that out practically, I mean, that would be, you know, that's the end of the human race, right? If we stop having children, you know, there's a lot of ways in which I don't think that adds up. So , yeah, so the meta question, right, is how, why does, you know, the second question that was asked is why does God even allow human beings to come into existence that will ultimately end up in hell? And that is a really important big picture question. Nate The way that I reconcile that in my mind, and I always do fall back on scripture's promises that we will not understand things in the exact same way that a completely omniscient, perfect God will. So his ways are higher than our ways, his thoughts are higher than our thoughts. But for me, at the end of the day, ultimately, I interpret both of those questions as, how can you really live with being a Calvinist? How can you really live knowing at the end of the day that God created everything, knowing how it would go so wrong in so many ways? How can you really believe in that kind of a God and sleep at night. And for me, the way I sum it up succinctly, and this is gonna get a little bit philosophical and theological, but follow with me here. I can't explain why comprehensively, but I can sufficiently for my own self. And I believe that somehow, some way, that we'll see with total clarity that a history of redemption brings more glory to God than a history of perfection. I don't know how that exactly works in a lot of ways to my Western mind that thinks in modern terms with modern categories and very limited. I can't explain how that could be the case, but somehow the falling away of humanity and God's redemption back in some way brings more glory to God than all the other alternatives. And although I can't fully explain it, what I do know is this. I do know that in all of our art, in our movies and our TV shows and every work of literature you read, there is a beauty to the story of falling away and a good God coming back. Of course, in a lot of our art, I think in some ways that reflects the truth of the gospel and the truth of the biblical story, but there's something in the human heart that sees this beauty of redemption. And we even see in the scripture that some of these pictures of kind of the angelic beings looking at with longing and the sense of there's a special relationship of humanity to the Lord, not just because everything was perfect, but because it wasn't. Nate Now, this is getting, that's getting really philosophical, and there's a reason why we didn't get here on our first episode about Calvinism, but we had enough follow-up questions, and you wanted to dig a little deeper. So, Pastor Jon, what do you think about that? Jon The history of redemption, history of perfection? I think that's a great answer, yeah. It's one of those things where we're searching back into sort of the mind of God at a very meta level and we do have to accept our limitations at some point. Yeah I think that's it is that you know for we don't fully understand why but God saw a redemption as the best story rather than Adam and Eve living in perfection and ultimately ending up that way. He could have created a different story. He didn't and that's how it happened. Another aspect I'd add to that is that, you know, we read the Bible itself in its own narrative account of this. Scripture in Genesis 3 is very clear that sin coming into the world is actually the fault of human beings. It doesn't say, well, it's this way because God wrote it this way. Now, we know ultimately that is true, that God allowed that to happen, that that happened. It was part of God's plan. But we do have to remember also just that we live in a sinful broken world. Punishment, justice, hell, those things are reality because we chose sin. Because Adam and Eve chose sin and so would all of us. So we have to kind of, I think, remember that part of the storyline as well. And to go back to another thing that we've been talking about, we've been talking about this difficult tension between God's sovereignty and human responsibility. And I just want to highlight that one more time, because it's so important to remember, both of those things are true. This is what Calvinists believe, but both of those things are true, even though we don't know exactly how they go together. So it's true that God is sovereign, God wrote the story, God's in control, and yet God still holds us accountable for our actions. We see that especially in the story of Jesus, that the Jews, the Romans, it says in different parts of Acts that they are the ones who are responsible for crucifying Jesus and yet at the same time it was a part of God's foreknown predestined plan and so God wrote the plan and yet human beings are held responsible for their role in it. Nate Absolutely. If we don't have all the answers I hope no one listening to this thinks well there's still some things left open-ended or some questions that don't have exact answers. We're not trying to hide that fact. If anything, I hope you heard some humility from both of us just to say there are things that there are answers that we trust are in the mind of God that we might not comprehensively understand but he has sufficiently revealed to us in the scriptures what we need to know for all of life and godliness and what it takes to follow him and enjoy the life he's given us and to worship him every day. But I'll just say one last thing, if you meet someone who does have every single answer for you, then that person by definition would be God themselves and you should follow them. But I would also be skeptical before you do that. So, good call. I like that. Jon It's good wisdom. Nate Food for thought. Jon Well, hey, this is a big topic. Like you said, a place for more resources on this, resoundmedia.cc . And maybe I'll mention this somewhere on Resound Media in the near future. But I think John Piper's five-part series called Tulip on the doctrines of Calvinism is probably the best lecture series I've seen on the topic. Just great stuff, great explanation. So I encourage you to check that out. Awesome, well hey, thanks everybody for listening. Thanks Pastor Nate, thanks Mitch. Have a great week. You can find That's a Good Question at resoundmedia.cc or wherever you listen to podcasts.

How to Surrender Control and Trust God with Your Child’s Salvation Christian Life Shannon Popkin Author & Podcast Host Live Like It's True Podcast Published On: When my kids were little, I wasn’t the mom who insisted on bike helmets and sunscreen. I fed my kids plenty of junk food and let them loose on our trampoline, which had no net. While I didn’t obsess over their health and safety, there was one concern that kept me up at night: my kids’ salvation. I didn’t worry about undertows, kidnapping, and allergic reactions; I worried about the words of Jesus who said, “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell” ( Matt. 10:28 ). Nothing terrified me more than the thought of one of my kids traipsing down the wide path that leads to destruction. I wanted each of them to choose the narrow path that leads to life ( Matt. 7:13 )! But unfortunately, I thought it was my job to get them there. My kids still vividly remember the day I demonstrated the discomfort of hell using a candle. I had gathered them for Bible time and was talking somberly about their need for salvation—which was not out of the ordinary. But this time as I talked about sin, Jesus, and the cross, Cade (who was four at the time) was being silly and playing with our dog, Theo. In frustration, I turned out the lights, lit a candle, and held Cade’s chubby hand over the flame until it grew uncomfortably hot. As you can imagine, I succeeded in getting everyone’s attention. I talked forcefully about hell’s lake of fire and outer darkness and gnashing of teeth ( Rev. 19:20 ; Luke 13:28 ). My kids also claim that I called Theo a “messenger of Satan” who was distracting them from truth ( 2 Cor. 12:7 ). All of this made quite an impression, but not the one I was going for. My kids thought I was crazy! They were more scared of me than of hell. Theo just wagged his tail. I promise you that I’m not completely crazy. My kids survived, and thankfully—in spite of the candle event and others like it—they each love Jesus and follow Him. But perhaps you’re wondering what might possibly prompt a mom of littles to turn off the lights and hold her preschooler’s hand over an open flame? I know what. Fear. Anger. But most of all a desire for control. Craving Control With the candle casting a dramatic glow to my face, I realized that I was driven by fear. Fear that they wouldn’t listen. Fear that they might not respond. Fear that I wouldn’t be able to persuade them. And I was also aware of my anger. Anger over the dog distracting them. Anger because I couldn’t get them to be serious. Anger that my plans to share truth were being upturned. My sinful anger and fear were obvious, but I was naively unaware of my underlying problem with control. As someone who relishes God’s sovereignty, I find my struggle with control ironic. I’m quick to argue that God is free to do all that He pleases. I’m also quick to affirm that salvation is held firmly in His hands. So why was I lighting candles? Apparently, I felt it necessary to squeeze my kids’ hearts with shame over their sin. It seemed good and right to take responsibility for their repentance. Commandeering my kids’ destinies not only felt possible, it seemed honorable, as if good moms were the ones who found a way to convince their kids to repent and be saved. Yet lunging for control—even over something as critical as my kids’ salvation—never produces the security, peace, and joy that I imagine it will. When I heap the burden of control up onto my own shoulders, I not only stagger under its weight, I also become the worst (angry, fretting, rattled, obsessed, hand-wringing, perfectionist, anxious, flame-lighting) version of myself. Rebekah’s Prophecy Rebekah, the mother of Jacob and Esau, had the same struggle. Like me, Rebekah enthusiastically believed that God had sealed her sons’ destinies. But also like me, Rebekah mistakenly thought it was right and good to stand in for God and take control. Now Rebekah did have a special circumstance. Before her twins were born, God had prophesied, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided ; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.” ( Gen. 25:23 , emphasis added) This was an extension of the prophecy given to Abraham about God making him a great nation, but the “divided” part was new. No doubt Rebekah found it troubling to learn that her family tree would be split in two. Jacob (the younger twin) would be the father to God’s people, and his older brother would become God’s enemy. But then came something even more troubling. When the twins were grown, Rebekah’s husband made plans to bless Esau—which was customary, since he was older—and name him as the leader of God’s people. He was completely disregarding a prophecy from God. So what did Rebekah do? She sabotaged her husband’s plans. I’m sure Rebekah was convinced that it was good and right to dress Jacob up in Esau’s clothes and put a steaming plate in his hand like a prop. I’m sure it seemed necessary to direct this charade so that she could trick her husband into blessing the rightful son—the one God had chosen ( Gen. 27 ). But as Rebekah stood in for God, she did not act in faith. As she manipulated the details and took control, she did not rejoice in God’s sovereignty. She did not trust God or anticipate the way He would make good on his promises. Instead, she revealed how much she doubted Him. She trusted herself to take control, not God. This same thing could be said of me the day I lit that candle—and on many other days like it. Rebekah’s story issued a stern warning against believing the façade that I can and should take control. But it also offers some strangely soothing comfort. A Comforting Truth When I read that before Rebekah’s twins were even born, God singled out one branch of the family tree to bless, it stirred up a whole bunch of salvation questions and concerns for my own children—and all the other people I want God to save. The possibility of our destinies being split like Rebekah’s family tree is horrifying! Yet tucked inside Rebekah’s prophecy is a striking truth which is helpful for Control Girl mamas like me. Here it is: your salvation is not based on who your mom is. Both Jacob and Esau had the same mom. Rebekah was neither the reason that Jacob followed God nor the reason that Esau didn’t. To find this comfort, you have to consider the alternative. What if, rather than a prophecy, Rebekah had been given a command? What if God had placed the responsibility for her sons’ destinies squarely on her shoulders? What if He expected Rebekah to produce God-honoring faith in the hearts of her two twin boys? And what if God expected this of me? What if it was my job to corral my kids onto the narrow path? What if their eternal destiny hinged on my ability to get them to listen and understand and repent and follow the Lord? How terrifying! How exhausting. I can only imagine what sort of candle-burning, fit-throwing, tactic-forming Control Girl mama I would become. And what if I could dress my child up and poke and prod him into winning God’s blessing? What would this say about God? He wouldn’t be in control; I would. And how comforting would that be? God Is in Control There is no relief or security in presuming that I can command my child’s destiny. None! Rebekah’s frantic manipulation demonstrates this well. As parents, we do have the privilege of laying out the jewels of the gospel and showing our kids how they sparkle, but that’s where our work ends. Salvation is God’s work, not ours, and oh, what comfort this brings. Rebekah’s prophecy was given so that we—as moms, dads, neighbors, and friends—might not become confused and assume that we can control anyone’s destiny. Romans 9:16 says, “So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.” My child’s destiny is held in the wise, merciful hands of God, not my faltering, candle-lighting ones. God is in control, which means I don’t have to be! Check out Shannon’s Book on this topic: Control Girl: Lessons on Surrendering Your Burden of Control from Seven Women of the Bible . More Blogs You'll Like Is Prioritizing Love Un-Christian? What Does The Bible Say? Read More More Than Meets the Eye Discovering God’s Purposes for Motherhood Read More Mom Guilt and How to Fight It Read More

PODCAST That's a Good Question Love, Rainbow Flags, and the Nature of Jesus and the Holy Spirit September 12, 2023 Jon Delger & Ryan DB Kimmel Listen to this Episode Jon Hey, everyone, welcome to That's a Good Question, a podcast of Peace Church. This is a place where we answer questions about the Christian faith in plain language. I'm Jon. I get to serve as one of the pastors at Peace Church, and I get to serve also as the weekly host of this show. We're excited to launch a new year, a new season of That's a Good Question, and we want to reach people and help them grow in their knowledge of the Bible and their walk with the Lord. We think a great way to do that is by answering people's questions about the faith. So you can always send questions to peacechurch.cc/question. We'd love to hear your questions about the faith and be able to talk about them here on the show. We also think the best medium for doing this is on a podcast. So you can listen to it on your way to work or while you're working or whatever the best place is for you so that you can hear us talk about what the Bible says and about how you can walk with Jesus in everyday life. You can also find video clips on YouTube of different parts of this, but the primary place you can find this is as a podcast. And today, I'm excited to be here with Pastor Ryan, our lead pastor at Peace Church. Ryan Yes, hello. Jon Excited to get to talk about the questions people have sent in. We've got some good stuff. Ryan Yeah. Jon All right, here we go. First one, big one here. Question #1: What is love? Ryan Isn't that the question? What is love? So, I think there's a couple ways you can think about it, but I think primarily you gotta go right to probably the Bible's definition that God is love. So, when I think about what is love, I first think of God, who he is, but then also we're seeing that played out through primarily the flesh and blood of Jesus through his life, death, resurrection, through his teachings. So I think for me, when we talk about what love is, it's going to stem all the way back to God. It's going to stem back to who God is and what he's done and what he's done for us. And so there's, man, this is like the age-old question, right? I mean, how many poets have spilt so much ink? How many songs have been written about what is love and what love is and how do we know it and how do we see it, how do we recognize it. I think, you know, when I talk like this, the cynic in me, the person who wants to question everything is, I want to immediately snap back at my own question and say something to the effect of like, so we can only know what love is if we know the Christian God. Does that mean that atheists can't know love or show love to one another or people from another religion? And my response to that is to say, no, absolutely, we can know and show love because we are made in God's image. And because of that, we have a capacity to love that comes from being made in God's image. And so I'd say is that yes, other religions and atheists and anyone who's a human can know and show love. We just may not recognize it as being connected to Yahweh or Jesus Christ or what we see in scriptures. That's kind of ways I'd begin to try to like say that we know what love is. And even if you don't know God, you can still know love. You just may not recognize that that love is coming from our Creator. Jon It's coming from God, whether you know it's coming from God or not. That's how it got there. I was just thinking it came from Pepsi. Those little Pepsi commercials. Ryan As manifested through Mountain Dew? Jon Yes. Ryan Wait, was there a commercial with Pepsi and Love? The What is Love? with Pastor Ryan. You really don't know that commercial? Ryan Man, uh... Wait, is it from the, is it from the SNL skit? Jon I don't know. Ryan Okay, I don't know what we're talking about. I've always been a cult guy. Jon Oh man, okay, I'll forgive you. I'll forgive you. I'll play the, I'll play a clip later. Yeah, yeah, us young folks in the room. That's who it's from. Yeah. Okay, so if it is, so if God is love, God is the ultimate definition of love, but just running down kind of the trail you were going of, if you're an unbeliever, if you adhere to another religion, and you don't know God, but you do know love, how do we, what are some words we could put that even describe what love is like? Ryan Yep, yep. So I think again, all that's going to look, we're going to get that from the pictures of Jesus. I think we'd say things like love is not selfish, love is sacrificial. Jesus said, a greater love has no one in this than he who would lay down his life for his friend. Right, so right there we see in an aspect that love is not selfish, love is sacrificial. And so as people recognize love in their life, I think it's always going to have some sort of sacrificial aspect to it. That love is something that you give out without expecting anything in return.What about you? Jon Yeah, yeah, totally. I think that makes sense. So selfless sacrifice. Selfless, sacrificial, yeah.Yeah, the selfless line was what I was going to think down of just putting others before yourself. Ryan Yep. Jon But love is usually characterized as... Ryan Yeah, I mean it's giving. For God so loved the world that he gave. So love is selfless, it's sacrificial, it's giving. Again, it's an outpouring without expecting something in return. Jon Yeah, which is why I like in the movies. You know, there's a reason that the movie heroes actually look a little bit like Jesus in the sense of the selfless sacrifice, right? Usually the best movie hero or story hero is the hero who lays down his life for everybody else or at least risks his life for everybody else. That's because there's a there's a universal aspect to what a hero is what love is because God is love and he's in us. Yeah, and that's universal across cultures, right? We're always going to recognize that in the hero. Ryan And that's why, you know, guys like Tolkien and Lewis will talk about how Christ is the true myth. Right? I mean, all the things that we long for in the stories are fulfilled fully and really and truly in Jesus. Jesus is the true myth. He's the one who all the stories of what a great hero, of what great love is, is all truly found in the real person of Jesus Christ. And so when we talk about love, I think one of the questions I want to get to is, okay, so we know what love is from Scripture and through God and through the demonstration of Jesus coming to earth and in the gospel. So what are ways that the world misinterprets love or what are the ways that the world defines love that's actually wrong? How would you begin to think about that? Question #2: What are the ways the world misinterprets love? Jon Yeah, well the main one we're hearing right now is love is love, right? The circular definition of love, that love is love. And I think what people are trying to say by that circular definition is that love is whatever you want it to be. I think that's the point of the circular definition. It's you make up your own, create your own adventure, you make up your own meaning to what love is. Ryan So I'd say that's definitely part of it. We'd say love has a definition. In a lot of ways, the world would say it doesn't. Love is whatever you want it to be. We'd also say, and again, when I say we, I mean a representative of the biblical worldview. Love is a sacrificial, selfless thing that you give up, versus the world is love is you affirming me. Love takes. Love is receiving something, versus giving. We put the emphasis on love as the action of one towards another. I think the world would say love is the action of someone else towards me, that they make themselves the center of the story. And so I think, you know, those two dichotomies, love has a definition, with the world to say it necessarily doesn't, or at least they would say every generation and culture has its freedom to develop their own, which essentially is just saying that there's no definition. So we'd say there's definition, the world says there's not definition. We would say, again, we from the biblical worldview, we would say that love is selfless and sacrificial versus the world, which is saying no, love is receiving and affirming something that you get. And we can definitely be the object of love, but we don't start there. We start with the Lord, we start with the gospel. Jon Yeah, so it really goes back to one of those core things of, core worldview things of is truth objective or is it subjective? And as Christians, we're saying truth is objective. There is an objective reality. It comes from God, it's in the Bible. And so things like love, things like beauty, there is an objective standard for these things. Ryan And yeah, there's an objective standard for love. You can't make it up. It's just what you said. I mean, this comes down to a battle of worldviews. Which worldview makes the most logical sense? Which worldview makes the most sense universally? Which worldview will stand the test of time? I think every great battle of thought is ultimately a battle of worldviews. It's where does it actually come from? Where does it stem from? Where does it find its grounding and its rooting? And for us, the eternal question of what is love. We're going to root that in the most eternal thing there is and that's that's God himself. Jon So to go down a little bit of a practical road of another question that came in the question was this: Question #3: What do we do with businesses that have rainbow flags in front of them? Yeah. Are we to go in there and is that showing them love or we to not go there is that yeah. The Christian loving thing to do. How do you do love the business? It's got a rainbow flag in front of it? Ryan So that's a, I'd say that's a, there's a number of ways you can begin to think about that question. And for me, when I think about this, because we've, I'm sure you have too, I've had people at numerous times, and that's putting it lightly, contact me about that very question. And I think at some point you have to leave space for Christian conscience. You know, as you seek the Lord with a mind renewed by the gospel, what are you led to do? So I think you can look at it two ways. One is, I think something you're gonna find a lot, at least around in our culture, like our specific context, is people say, I don't want to support businesses that don't hold true to the values that I wanna see permeated in our culture. So when I go and support businesses with rainbow flags or supporting values that I don't adhere to, people feel like, okay, well, I'm supporting the spread of those ideas into my culture, and I don't want to do that. That's one way that I think you could honestly approach that, but I think other people look at it, other Christians, I would say, other Christians look at it and they say, well, I want to reach these people. I want to share the love of Jesus with these people. And so we should be going into these businesses and making connections and showing the love and letting them know that we love them as people and that we we want you know we want good things to come from them and you know I have pushbacks and critiques on both sides of that on the one hand you can't just stand against so going back to that first group of people you can't just stand against something okay how are you actually promoting then the values you want to see in this world you know if you're willing to take a stand and not go to these businesses, then what in your life are you actually doing that's going to be promoting the values that you want to see in this world? I think a lot of times that can't point to a lot, can't point to much. On the flip, for those who say, no, we need to go into those businesses, we need to share the love and support them as people and look them in the eye and let them know that we love them. A lot of times they'll talk about building bridges, we want to build bridges with these people. And I'd say that I can understand that, that's great, but what are you going to do with that bridge and when are you going to actually walk across it and share the gospel? Like, say, you are a sinner, but the good news is that Jesus died for our sins. You want to build these connections and let these people know they're loved. I appreciate that. I can support that. But you need to at some point walk across the bridge that you say that you're building, which leads to a confrontation in the sense of you're presenting the gospel, which is going to be confronting to their sin. So I think a lot of times people aren't willing to actually do that. They will couch their intentions in this nicety of showing love and building bridges. And it's like, okay, but what are you actually going to do with that? Are you actually going to walk across that bridge and share the gospel at one point. So, again, the cynic in me wants to critique both sides. And so, those are just some ways I'm going to think about it. What about you, Pastor Jon? Jon Yeah, there's one answer that you didn't list in there, and it's because you listed the valid options that Christians can hold in tension, right? Two options that they can both do. There's a third option, which would be to say, well, I'm going to support the rainbow flag and all that it means because I'm a loving person. And that goes back to some of what we were saying just a minute ago, which is that we believe in the truth, objective truth, God and the Bible, God telling us objective truth and what reality is like through the Bible. And therefore, that means that that option is off the table, that scripture is very clear with us, that that lifestyle, LGBTQ lifestyle is contrary to God's word. And so that's one of the options, one of the non-options, is to say that I support all that does and means because I'm a loving person. Actually, to be a loving person would be to share what's true, what's objectively true and real, and what God says leads to eternal life. You want other people to experience eternal life, then you've got to share the truth of the gospel with them. They can turn from their sin, receive Jesus as Savior, and experience life. That'd be the most loving thing you could do for them. Ryan Yeah, this is, I think this is the one of the great tensions people feel because we want to be seen as loving and the world has said, okay, well, to be loving means to affirm everything that the rainbow flag stands for. And there's people who buy into that and people who will go and support because they're trying to fit in. And, you know, I just preached a message about this and where I kind of brought up in the whole notion of holiness is like the more you fit into culture the more that's the antithesis of holiness. Like holiness is being set apart. It's being set apart from this world. It's belonging to God not belonging to this world. And so when we have a pursuit that is leading us to be more affirmed and embraced by our culture, I think we're becoming less holy. And so we get that it's totally unpopular, we get that it's countercultural, we get it's not the way that the world is turning, at least in our society, but for those who want to hold true to the biblical truths of the Christian faith, we can't affirm that as being ordained by God as a flourishing, fruitful life. God has something better for us. And that's the message of Christians, that we want to share that with the world, that we have a God who has something better for us. Even though we are all, all of us trapped in our sin, Christ has made a way to save us from that through his own life and death and resurrection. Yeah, I'd say that's not a valid option. I think you need to either just say, I'm not going to support this because it doesn't promote the values I want to see in my culture at which point I'd say okay well then how are you actually promoting the values? You want you to see in your culture and then on the flip you could say well No, I think we need to go in there and show the love of Christ and build bridges and build relationships to which I'd say Great, that's what you're called to do go do that But what's your plan of action for actually sharing the gospel for actually walking across that bridge once it's built. Jon Yeah, so you brought up your sermon yesterday Which is awesome by the way. But thinking about those two options that you just laid out, I can imagine a Christian being in a conversation where they are asked or are confronted with this choice about what they do with a business with a rainbow flag. And either way they take, they could find themselves in this conversation where somebody's saying to them, okay, you decided not to go to those businesses. How is that, how does that not make you a hateful person? Or you could be sitting in a situation where you say, well, I do go to these businesses, but then I tell the people who are there to repent and turn to Jesus, and they say, well, that's hateful that you tell them they should repent and turn to your God. So, in either way, they could find themselves in this position where they're being accused of being hateful. So, if you're a Christian sitting in that spot where you're doing one of these options that aligns with the vocal worldview and a Christian conscience, and yet the world is saying to you, you're a hateful person because you've made that choice. Yeah. What should Christians say when they are accused of being hateful? Ryan What should a Christian say? Well, I'd say, number one, the first thing I'd say is that just shows the clash of worldviews. Because the truth is, is that unless you're going to affirm and celebrate what they affirm and celebrate, they're going to see you as hateful. It's a zero-sum game in our culture. And this is the whole point I was making yesterday, this is the whole intro, and I wove this throughout the entire sermon, that Christians have always been accused of being something that we're not. That's been the case since day one for Christians. And it's because the world judges us only by their own standard, and they don't look to see the true intention of the Christian heart and message. You can very much expect you will be called the things you don't want to be called. You will be called the things that are not true because you're not doing what the world wants. And so I would say to the Christian, you can expect to not be ultimately welcomed when the rubber meets the road of sharing the message. Now, that's a worst case scenario. I think what we pray for is that God will work and the Spirit will move and people will turn to Jesus and we'll welcome them as brothers and sisters and we'll see him in heaven and we'll join forces and do some great mission and ministry here. But this is part of the package of being a gospel sharer in our world. People are going to reject it and part of that rejection is calling you things that are not true. Yeah. Well, and it's it's kind of getting uh I hesitate to say this but it's getting harder or at least it feels like it's us you know the generations of Christians past might agree or disagree with the statement but it's getting harder and harder to have the conversation because in our world there's so much there's so much there's a such a lack of common ground in our worldviews that it's hard to talk about. Or at least like the yeah, like the moral framework is competing is getting more and more divorced. Jon Yeah. Well, and even it, yeah, and the blending in obviously was Christians. We don't want to blend in. So there's that side of it. So that's good that on the one hand, we're caused to stand out more. On the other hand, I'm saying, I guess one thing that's just even harder is just our lack of shared values or language. Even, you know, when we say love, we mean two different things now. That's just, I think that's harder now than it was five or ten years ago. Ryan Well, and that's it's like there's there's the aspect of no definition and redefinition. I saw this I have this very liberal Progressive Facebook friend who went on this rant about pride and there you know the whole thing was like if you don't understand what we mean By pride then you you know you're a bigot or you're archaic or you're ignorant. You know, pride doesn't mean bride. Pride means celebration of yourself. And it's like, well, at some point, we have to like use the same dictionary. Otherwise, we're never gonna move forward and with any sort of commonality or to any sort of agreement on anything. And it was like, if you don't automatically know what we mean when we use words that we've always used, but now use in a different way, then you're the one who's on the outside, you're the one who is the trouble to society or the ignorant one or the bigot and it's just that whole notion of losing our shared values, we're losing our shared language with that. I mean again we should know what love is love, what that actually means. Okay, I think we do. It's what we're saying is like love between two people of opposite sex. It's like, okay, but it means more than that, right? That's what you're saying. And so when they kind of concede that, then it's like, okay, but what does it actually mean? Well, so if we have two different sets of words, it's like we have two different languages, right? It is like a language barrier. It's like you're talking, one person's talking English, one person's talking Spanish. It's sort of feels like that way sometimes. Which is just an aspect of a culture barrier, right? I mean, part of the culture barrier is language. And that's just where it kind of shows that we are becoming two distinct cultures. Because we're developing different languages. Yeah, totally, totally. So as I think about my own question, the question that I asked, if you're standing in front of somebody and they accuse you of hate speech for sharing a biblical perspective, I'm sort of imagining how I would try to, so if you're trying to cross that culture barrier, that language barrier in a few short sentences, I think I would probably say something like, okay, well, I understand what you're saying, I understand why you're telling me that, that you think that I'm hateful for saying this or for believing this, but actually see it from my side, see it from my perspective. From my perspective, I'm actually the most, this is as loving as I can be because what I believe is that if you don't turn to Jesus, then you will go to hell and spend eternity in punishment instead of eternity in life with Jesus. And so the most loving thing I can do is to point out your sin and ask you to repent of it and to turn to Jesus. Now, I know you don't see it that way, but that's how I see it because that's what the Bible says. And so that exactly it's at some point, right? You not some point you want to start here, but when things get heated, you kind of want to go back to that base level human to human and just be like, listen, you, you understand like you, I understand how, like you're saying, I understand how, why you think this is hateful, but do you understand from my perspective, like, hear me, I do not hate you. Yeah. I do not mean to be hateful to you. That's not my intent. That's not my heart. I'm, I, I, I'm sorry that you receiving it like that way. But the true intention of my heart is to share with you something that's good and pure and right and better. And at some point, if the conversation still crumbles, you did your due diligence. Jon Right. Yeah. The victory, the outcome is not in your hands. It's in the Lord's hands. But I think that's a good way to try to explain yourself. And then ultimately, you go home and you pray. Ryan And also, the other thing is, I think we often get trapped into like, maybe like a YouTube wormhole, or rabbit trail, and we nd up seeing all these videos of these two groups on the street starting to hash it out and go screaming at each other. For me, it's like, the more you can do this one-on-one, I think in the American culture, that's a better way to do it. Sure. I'm not saying there's not a place for street preaching. I'm saying you have to be wise to your times and understand the dynamics of your culture. And I just think there's a group thinking group mentality that is so overbearing. It's almost unproductive to try and have two groups like that. The best, the more that you can move to those is one-on-one conversation or correspondences. I think they're more beneficial and fruitful. I had some conversations this past week with, or not this past week, I had some conversations this past summer with some people on the opposite side of this culture. And we actually had some really great conversations, just me and them, one-on-one, talking about these things, because we're not trying to get likes, we're not trying to show off in front of our buddies, we're having two conversations with between two real people, just with very different perspectives on things. And I felt like it's, they know where I stand, I know where they stand, and it wasn't shrouded in a heated conversation with a bunch of witnesses. And so I think the more you can move those two over a cup of coffee, or through some sort of electronic exchange, I think that's a better approach by and large in our culture. Again, I don't want to diminish the effectiveness or the place of street preaching. I've actually done it myself. I'm not opposed to it. I just think when in my time, I've been way more kingdom productive when I go one-on-one and then on a street corner or with a group of people. So that was a little bit of a rabbit trail, but. No, that was great. Jon Alright, hey, one last question for us here before we go. Somebody sent in this question. It's a great question. They asked this. They asked if Jesus always was or if he came to be when he was sent to Earth. And they're asking the same question about the Holy Spirit. Was the Holy Spirit always there or did the Holy Spirit come when Jesus gave him as a gift after he left the Earth? Question #4: Did Jesus always exist or was He created when He came to earth? Ryan You know, just before we get into the finer points of that, I really appreciate when people just ask straight up theological questions. Yeah, it's awesome. Not the practical questions dealing with all the relevant cultural issues, but just these good old fashioned theological questions. So I can't say for certain, but I wonder if this stems from something I said in the message when I talked about how Christians are called atheists. Christians at one point were called atheists, but I said, it's really odd because we have like the most robust theology of all the religions because we believe that God came to earth as the man born in that manger on Christmas. So I wonder if that sparked it, maybe, maybe not, or it could just be, that's a great age-old question. Jon Yeah, right. People have been asking that question for a couple thousand years now. Ryan They certainly have. They certainly have. So, the answer to that question is that Jesus always existed. He received the name Jesus at his birth, but God the Son, the second member of the Trinity, has existed from all eternity. That's the Orthodox Christian stance. That's what the Bible teaches. That's what we believe and preach here at Peace Church. Pastor Jon, you want to dial in on that a little bit? Jon Yeah, a few passages that come to mind. Think of John 17, when Jesus is praying his high priestly prayer. He's talking to the Father, and he says, he talks about going back to the glory that he had before he had come to the earth, the glory that he had at the Father's side. So, talking about his existence before becoming a man. Think of John chapter 1, the Gospel of John chapter 1, and talking about being the Word, being one with God, talk about his existing since eternity past. John 1:2-3 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. I think of Colossians chapter one, talks about Jesus' preeminence, think of passages like in Romans 8 that talk about Jesus being the firstborn among many brothers. Those passages could be easily kind of, I could see, you know, it'd be, those are kind of tricky, that language, firstborn, but what Jesus is talking about is actually his higher standing or his being the highest among the brothers. Also just that he's the first of the resurrected ones. So it's not saying that he didn't exist before he was born as a man. Jesus always was. Ryan Yeah, we, I know that you had this professor too. We weren't in college, Professor Dr. Doug Felch. He talked about this because this is an age-old controversy that the early church dealt with. It's called the Arian Controversy where people would argue, was there a time when Jesus did not exist? Or was there not a time when Jesus did not exist? And like literally people would gather in groups on the sides of the on different sides of the street and they'll and you know two thousand years ago and scream at each other and professor felch would like reenact this in front of it was amazing you know people would raise their fist in the air and they'd say there was a time when he was not and then the people on the other side of the street would say there was not a time when he was not and then you go back and forth and was when he was not was not when he was not was not when he was not that's right it's a tongue twister, but he was doing it perfectly every time. Jon He did, yeah. Ryan And never forget it. Never forget it. So, no, Jesus pre-existed. His time went before, I mean, Jesus was always existed with the Father. The Father, Son, and Spirit. Paternally existed. One in essence, three in persons. The second member of the Trinity came to earth, born, took on humanity, was given the name Jesus, Jesus Christ, forever wedded with his humanities. He's perfectly, he's 100% human, 100% divine, but Jesus came from heaven to earth and he's returned to heaven to earth and we will be with him one day when we leave this mortal plane. And so that's a great question. Real quick, the Holy Spirit too. Jon Should we talk about the Holy Spirit as well? Ryan Yep, so I mean, I think that's less confusing, or at least produces less questions. I hear that one way less. And I think a lot of times you just go back to Genesis 1, the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the deep. I mean, the Spirit was there in the very beginning before creation. And so, Father, Son, Spirit, first, second, third persons of the Trinity, eternally existing. Jon God has always been one in essence, three in persons. Always was the case, always will be the case. Didn't just start on earth in human history. Always been the case. Great question. Awesome stuff. Thanks for asking. Thanks everybody. Great questions. Thanks for sending them in. And thanks for spending some time with us. And thanks for spending some time with us. We'll catch you later.

On The Cross (Part 2) Sermon Series: It Had To Be Said Ryan DB Kimmel Lead Pastor Peace Church Main Passage: Luke 23:39-43 Transcript Today is the day that the Lord has made. So let us rejoice and be glad in it and everyone everywhere, including the venue and the chapel and those online that we all said together, amen. Amen. So church, we do live in a world where there is no shortage of words. English, they say is the most wordy language of all time. And thanks to this thing, for those listening on a podcast later, this is a phone, our phone. Thanks to this thing, we have way too much access to far too much of what's being said in our world. Our world has no shortage of words or opinions. We live in a world where feelings are seen as just as valid as facts. In this world, we have to ask ourselves, when we have access to so much, where can we turn to for words that will cut through the noise? Where can we turn to to find words that are comforting, challenging, and true? Where can we turn to find words that are both timely and timeless? Words that were as much needed as when they were spoken as they are needed now? I'll tell you, there's one place, and that's the scriptures. And we've been doing that this summer as we look at words that cut through the noise, words of Jesus Christ. Again this series has been looking at words simply from Jesus, what's often called the red letter words. Words not just from anyone, but words from Jesus Christ. Words, quotes, that changed the world. And I'll just tell you right now, the words of Jesus that we're going to look at today, they most certainly change the world, but I will tell you right now, they are words that specifically changed me. Coming back from sabbatical, I wanted to preach a message that was deeply personal to me to share some things. As we look at, I think, the words that the Holy Spirit used to cut through my heart,to call me to faith in Jesus. And so if you have your Bibles, would you please turn to the Gospel of Luke, chapter 23. We'll be looking at verse 34 today. If you want to use the Bibles we've provided, happy for you to do that, that's on page 1124. Again, these are words that Jesus Christ spoke from the cross, and they're words that the Holy Spirit used, as much as I can say this, to cut into my heart and call me to faith in Jesus Christ. They are words that Jesus said after his torture, during his crucifixion. Now, if you know anything about the physiology of a crucifixion, to even speak during crucifixion was extremely painful. And Jesus finds the strength to say the words that we're going to look at today. Jesus said these words as he was looking upon the people, the very people that were doing this to Him. And this is what He said. And so, would you hear the word of the Lord, the words of Jesus? Luke, chapter 23, verse 34. And Jesus said, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. This is God's holy word. Let's pray and we'll continue. Let's pray. Father, we come to you in prayer. We come to you in the name of Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit, asking that you would be with us today, helping us to know the truth of your word, timeless and timely words that we might know salvation in Jesus' name, that we might, by the blood of Jesus, be brought back into a relationship with you, our good and glorious God and we do pray these things for your glory for our joy and for the good of our neighbor we do pray these things and everyone said all together amen so father forgive them for they do not know what they do Jesus Christ prayed this for the people who were killing him as they were killing him while he hung on the cross. When I first read these words as an 18-year-old, and I understood what was happening in this moment when Jesus said this, it was like I was on the road of life. And when I read these words, it was like God brought this enormous roadblock and set it right in front of me, and said, this is your path no longer. I have a new path for you to follow the way of my son. Has it been perfect since then? Nope, it's been pretty bumpy and rocky at times. But since that time, confessing my faith in Jesus, I've walked the path of the way, the way of Christ. When I read these words as a high school kid, I will tell you, I lost. My defenses failed me. I couldn't get around these words. Every argument that I had against the Christian faith suddenly became very brittle and hollow. And it was like God said to me, you're mine now, and I have a better plan for you. Now listen, Jesus Christ, as you've heard all summer long, he said some powerful words, he said comforting words, he said challenging words, at times Jesus even said some condemning words, but you know what these are for me? You know what sort of words these are? These are confirming words for me. These words, when you understand what's happening and you understand the moment that Jesus was in when he said this, they are like confirming words. They reveal who he is and what he's come to do. And it shows us why Jesus is so amazing. So as we begin to look at the end of the summer, rather than three points today, I'll keep it easy on you, we'll just do two points today as we look at this wonderful, powerful verse. Two things today. On the cross we see firstly that Jesus prays for sinners, and secondly on the cross we see that Jesus provides for salvation. All right, so let's get into it. First point. Jesus prays for sinners. Keep your Bibles open here today. Verse 34. In these words, Father forgive them for they do not know what they do, we see Jesus doing something remarkable. I've said it before, I'll say it again because you cannot forget this. Jesus was praying this for the people who were killing him as they were killing him. Say what you want about Jesus Christ, but you cannot deny that this man lived everything he taught. Jesus prays for sinners. This is a prayer. So let's talk about prayer for a second. Bump your neighbor and say we're talking about prayer because we're talking about prayer right now. Now I've always said there's two types of Christians. There's those who pray and those who say they pray. And I looked at my life and for a long time I thought to myself, I don't pray enough to really qualify myself as a praying man. There was this one time a number of years back that I was I was leading a mission trip to a place called Switzer West Virginia. Now you people who are West Michiganders, you have no idea where Switzer West Virginia is and there's no reason for you to know where that is. It's in the middle of nowhere Appalachia. Like when you go to the middle of Appalachia and you're lost, keep going and maybe you'll find Switzer. This is where we were at as a group. Now I brought a group down there to help out this little church. Then what happened during the week was there's these three little old ladies who would come to the church every single day and they would make us lunch. And one day we got our morning project done early. So I thought, you know, I'm gonna go help these little ladies get ready for lunch. So I go into their little church and I'm walking down the stairs and I get to their basement and I start walking towards the little kitchenette that they have and one of the women was on the phone and she says, Oh my goodness, yes, we'll pray for that. And then she hung up the phone. Now I know some of you don't know what I mean when I say hung up the phone. See, you know, back in the olden days, in the 1900s, there was this thing, phones were actually attached to a wall and were connected by a cord. And you knew the people who were extremely talkative, because their cord was a lot longer than other people's cord. If you remember, some cords were like 35 feet long, and that's so mom or grandma could talk throughout the entire house and still be connected to the wall. Let me see, who here had a mom or a grandma like that? Who here was a mom or grandma like that? Yeah, okay. So I get down and I'm walking to this kitchenette and she says, Oh my goodness, yes, I'll pray for that. She hangs up the phone. She turns to her friends and she says, so-and-so is going in for emergency emergency surgery right now. And I'm walking up to these three little old ladies and they say, would you like to pray with us? And do you know what went through my head? That Eminem song. This looks like a job for me. Like I was like, I'm here. This is why I'm here. I'm the highest ranking person here. So yes, I will pray. And in my mind, I thought for just a second, I was outlining how the prayer was gonna go. You know how this works around here. We got this really unique way of doing prayer where someone says, okay, why don't you start, and if anyone feels like they are led to pray, go ahead and pray, and then I'll close it up at the end. You know how we do that around here, right? Yeah, okay, so apparently not everyone does it like that. So I'm walking up and they say, would you like to pray with us? And I say yes, thinking this is how it's gonna go. But no sooner did I say yes, than did these three women all start praying at the same time out loud. And I realized in a fraction of a second, I am seriously outgunned here. I've just entered something new. I don't pray like that. The pastors I know, we don't pray like that. I am telling you, it was a deep prayer. It was devoted. It was desperate. It was a prayer pouring out their hearts. It was a prayer that they fully believed that God could heal. It was unashamed because they were all talking at the same time and they didn't care what anyone thought of their prayers. They were crying out to their God. It was a beautiful thing. You know, what makes someone brave is not just what they're willing to do, but what they're willing to do in front of other people. And so let me just throw a challenge out to the Christian men in the house. Pray out loud. Pray out loud with your wife, with your family, with your kids. Jesus Christ was on the cross. You want to talk about an inconvenient time to pray? He is on the cross and he still prays. So when I was in that little prayer circle with these women, I'll be honest with you, I walked away from that prayer time really discouraged. And I was really discouraged for a long time. It troubled me. Because you want to know what I did? I made that the gold standard for prayer. For a long time I was discouraged about my prayer life because I didn't pray like that. Nobody I knew really prayed like that. And I was really discouraged for a long time. Until my understanding of prayer, look to the scripture. When you get to the scriptures, you see something drastically different. See, when I was growing up, I thought prayer was that time that you carved out at some point in the day, and you folded your hands, and you got on your knees, and you closed your eyes, and then you started praying like you were writing a letter. Dear God, how are you today? That's how I thought prayer was. I thought it was simple and like writing a letter and then I experienced these ladies and then I was like, oh wait, wait, no, it must be really big and broad. But then when I started searching more and more of the scriptures, you see something, all that and more. See, when you look at the prayers of the scriptures, you see raw, honest prayers. You see honest prayers. And what I mean is that sometimes people who are praying in the Bible, they're confused about what God is doing or what God is allowing. When you look at some prayers in the scriptures, there's not many of them that are very elaborate or even deeply religious sounding. And yet Christ shows us something beautiful that you can pray even through excruciating pain. Prayer is not a letter to God. Prayer is talking to the Father through the Son in the power of the Spirit and then listening. See, I once thought prayer was patient and on your knees, and I thought it was powerful and out loud. Then I realized it's all that and more. Those ladies will always be champions of the faith in my book, but I'll tell you now, they're no longer the gold standard of prayer for me. You want to know what is? It's this prayer of Jesus that we're looking at today. This is a prayer, mind you. Father, forgive them. This prayer from Jesus on the cross, this is the epitome of grit. It's selfless, it's short, it's faithful. For many of us, we don't pray, we just say we do. And I'm telling you, we are missing out on so much. This is the prayer of our Savior as He was dying. This is what he's praying as he's dying, as they are killing him. It's this prayer, Jesus pleading with God the Father for the forgiveness of the people who are killing him. He's praying this as they are killing him. What sort of man is this? Can you imagine a woman praying for the forgiveness of her husband as he is cheating on her? Can you imagine a 68 year old man praying for the forgiveness of his accountant as his accountant is draining his retirement dry? What sort of man is this? There is something else going on here with Jesus. Jesus is praying for the forgiveness of the people who are killing him as they're killing him. But listen here, it does not end there. It gets even more powerful. See, Jesus Christ, yes, He does die on that cross. He is killed on that cross. He does not come off alive. They take His dead body off the cross and they lay it in a tomb where it lays stone-cold dead for three days. But then, in this little thing we call the resurrection, the Son of God rose again. The resurrection is what makes or breaks the Christian faith. Jesus Christ rose again. And then for 40 days, he continued to minister, and then he returned to heaven. So here's the question, what's Jesus doing now in heaven? Well, aside from ruling and reigning, did you know that Jesus is also praying for you? He prays for us still. Romans chapter 8, verse 34. Jesus Christ, who died more than that, who was raised to life, is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. This is take a moment, listen to the rain, embrace it, it's beautiful. Notice here it says, he's at the right hand of God, interceding for us. It doesn't say praying, it uses a special word, interceding, intercession. Now listen, if you're like me and you come from a pretty conservative background, that's probably not a word you hear a lot, but it's a biblical scriptural word that is a way to pray. Now what is intercession? Intercession is praying where we stand in the gap for someone else and we intervene in on their behalf in prayer. And so, when Jesus says, Father forgive them, for they know not what they do, I would tell you that is the greatest in a sensory prayer in all of the Bible. Ten words in English, it was actually only eight words in Greek, and it is a prayer that still changes hearts. Jesus still intercedes for us. Hebrews chapter 7 verse 25 says, Therefore Jesus is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. Christians, listen to me. Jesus is praying for you right now. Right now in heaven, Jesus is speaking your name to God the Father, and he's praying for you. But this here, right now, this is the point where you ask me, so what? Because here's one of the things I really want us to do as a church, I want us to be able to ask really big, hard questions. We need to be able to express our doubts and have our questions and ask them. And you can ask any question you want here without judgment. We want to have conversations. We want you to bring your questions. In fact, I want you to think about your hardest possible question and then send it to Pastor John. That's what I want you to do. So Jesus is praying for us. Okay, I invite you to ask the question, so what? My friend, here's the so what. Knowing that Jesus is praying for you, I want you to remember this because whatever life throws at you, whatever people do to you, whatever your boss is like, whatever your marriage is like, however hurtful your friends can be, I want you to remember at all times that the Savior of the world is praying for you by name in heaven right now. And let that wash over you and remind you how deeply cared for and loved you are by God. Now, before we get to our second point, I just want to call out something that many of you probably have noticed if you have your Bibles open. If you have your Bibles open, you'll notice that we're not actually looking at one verse today. We're looking at half of a verse today. Verse 34 continues. It goes on to say this, and Jesus said, Father, forgive them for they know not what they do and they cast lots to divide his garments. So not only were they killing him, but as they were killing him, they were gambling to see who gets his stuff. They were slaughtering him and stealing from him at the same time. And listen to me, not just his stuff, his garments, that means his clothes. For us in the modern age, it's very hard for us to understand how absolutely horrible crucifixion was. It was designed to bring about the most intense, horrendous possible physical pain, while also making you go through the most horrendous psychological torture imaginable. Because one thing you need to know about Romans is when they crucified people, they stripped them naked first, and they crucified them naked. Jesus Christ was naked on the cross, praying for the forgiveness of people who were killing him as they were killing him, as they were stealing his clothes right in front of him. Bring me any other religious leader, because they've got nothing on Jesus. My friend, do not delay. Cast your sin aside, cast your pride aside, and lay it all before the cross, because there is no one like Him. There is no one who has done for you apart from what Christ has done for you. There is no one who will call you like Jesus will, who loves you like He does. What He did for those men is a shadow of what He's done for the entire world, what He's done for you. So do not delay. The cast lots to divide his garments and yet he still prays for them. This is how amazing of a Savior we have in Jesus Christ. Jesus prays for sinners, for you and for me, and he also provides for salvation. And Jesus said, Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do. They do not know what they're doing. Okay, so what were they doing? If they don't know, what were they actually doing? Let's talk about that. See, here's what so many people get wrong about the death of Jesus. So many people, especially in our culture, so many people have this understanding that Jesus was simply this nice guy who was wrongfully murdered and it's so sad what happened to this nice guy by these evil people. Now think about it from their perspective for a second. Think about it from the authority's perspective for a moment, because it's not just what Jesus did that got him killed, it's what he said that got him killed. Let's look at some of these things. Mark 11, verse 26, Jesus said that unless you forgive, you will not be forgiven. Jesus said in John 10 30, Jesus said that he and God the Father were one. They were the same. They were one in essence. Matthew chapter 5 verse 40, Jesus said that someone asks for your coat, you are to give them your shirt as well. Wasn't Jesus living that one out here? John chapter 14 verse 6, Jesus said that He was the only way to heaven, that He was the only way to God the Father. My friends, you don't get to say the things that Jesus said unless you are who Jesus said He was. Church, I will tell you now, it was realizing this that God turned my heart and made me become a Christian. If Jesus isn't Emmanuel, if Jesus isn't God with us, if Jesus isn't the Savior of the world, if the things that Jesus said were not true, then listen to me, then he got what he deserved. You don't get to say the things that Jesus said if they're not true. You don't get to say the things that Jesus said if you weren't who Jesus said he was. If Jesus wasn't who he said he was, then do not call him a great moral teacher. Rather, he was the greatest liar the world has ever known, and he should not be venerated. He should be demonized or at least forgotten. If Jesus wasn't who he said he was, if Jesus was lying, he got what he deserved. But what's beautiful about this is that Jesus took everything he said and he went all the way with it, all the way even to his death. Father, forgive them for they do not know what they do. Jesus knew in this moment that his death on the cross was a pivotal moment in all of human history, but he knew that they didn't realize it. See, they thought they were killing a rebel against Rome. They thought they were killing another common criminal. They didn't realize that they were killing the one who is providing them salvation. What were they doing? They were killing the Savior of the world. But what was Jesus doing? He was the perfect Son of God, and in this moment He is dying for the sins of the world. He is paying the penalty that your sins and my sins deserve. He was taking the punishment that was for us to bear. The world that is around us does not realize this. Some of you sitting here right now, you do not realize what happened when Jesus Christ died on the cross. It was five long years that my wife and I were in the adoption process. But when the time finally came for us to fly to Ethiopia and to adopt our son, we sat nervously in that Ethiopian courthouse and we waited our turn to meet the judge. Now listen, this was one of the greatest moments of our lives. And it was also one of the greatest moments of our son's life, but he had no idea what was happening. But I don't think that negates how monumental of a moment it was for him. Our son did nothing to contribute to the adoption process aside from being born. Yet the adoption, becoming finalized, was one of the biggest moments of his life, and he doesn't remember it. It's like this, Christ dying on the cross is one of the biggest moments of your life, and some of you don't realize it yet. But realizing this and accepting this truth will change everything. It changes hearts. Father forgive them, for they do not know what they do. What were they doing? They were killing the Savior of the world. They were fulfilling prophecy. They were witnessing firsthand the righteous judgment of God being poured out on His Son for the sins of the world. Jesus in this moment is providing salvation for all who will place their faith in Him. Because this is what happened. This is what happened on the cross. Jesus took your sin and took the punishment you deserve so you don't have to. They don't know what they do. Jesus is reminding us how lost the world is. The world doesn't know. The world, back then, those soldiers had Jesus right in front of them. They had the crucifixion live happening right before them, and they didn't realize what was happening. Many people can look upon Jesus, many people can come to church many people can hear the gospel proclaimed and not realize their need for a Savior and It's because we are lost. It's because our hearts are hardened The world is lost and they don't realize who Christ is or what he's done The world is lost and they don't know what they do This is why Christians should be the most empathetic and compassionate people on the planets. Listen, if someone is lost in the woods and they're trying to find their way home and they're going in the wrong direction, do you hate them for it? No, of course not. Likewise, in this world, when people promote sin, we should not hate them for it. On the flip, we should be empathetic because they are lost, they're going in the wrong direction. Or even more, like Jesus, we should be pleading with God for their forgiveness because they don't know what they are doing. When I see people choose the desires of sin rather than the joy of Jesus, it's not pity I feel, it's not hatred I feel, it's empathy, it's compassion. In some ways it's sadness because I wish they knew that what Christ offers is infinitely better. When I first read this verse as an 18 year old, you want to know what I thought? I was thinking to myself, if I was in Jesus' shoes, if I was on the cross, after a lifetime of pouring out love to these people, and this is what they were doing to me, if I was in that moment, you want to know what? This is where I'd show my cards. This is where I'd show my cards. I'd be sitting there from the cross. I'd take every ounce and I'd say I can't believe you people everything I've done for you I Served you I taught you I've done all these wonderful things for you. And this is what you do for me That's what you do to me. You all can go to hell That's what I would say because I would show my cards as the sinful wretch that I am but you want to know something Jesus does show His cards here. He's showing the world exactly who He is. Jesus shows His cards and it's amazing. When I first read this verse at that moment, I realized what I was doing. I was spiritually blind, living a life of sin, putting myself before God, putting myself before others, wanting to be accepted by the world rather than wanting to be accepted by the creator of the world. This verse spoke deep into my heart. I don't know if you've noticed this, my friends, but it seems like, especially in the last generation, that people in our world have graduated from celebrating sin to finding identity in it. But they do this because they don't know what they do. They're lost. They give themselves to sin. And what we need to know, what we need to be reminded of is that sin is what put Jesus on the cross, my sin and your sin. And it was in reading this that my spirit was broken. It was in reading this that I realized that Jesus was the one worth giving my life to, that He was who He said He was. And so when we repent of our sin on Christ and Christ pays the penalty for us. And because our sin has been punished and not just ignored, this is why we can rightly say and rightly sing as we did in the beginning that justice has been satisfied and all Christians should say amen at this. And not only this, but our sin is taken away as if that wasn't enough, we are given abundant life, and if that wasn't enough, we're given eternal life, and if that wasn't enough, you know what also we get? We get brought back into the family of God. We get reconciled to God and we get to have a relationship with our Creator again, and this is because of what Jesus has done for us. And so, church, when you read these words, many of your Bibles will have these words in red, and it's very appropriate because these truly are blood-stained words, as we see how these words cut through all the noise. Church today we read a quote from Christ that changed the world. My prayer is that it will change you, and that the Spirit will call you into a faith in Jesus. But for those of us who have faith, let me remind you, Jesus prays for us, He provides salvation. And for those of you who are walking with the Lord, is there any, let me ask you, is there any better response to this any, let me ask you, is there any better response to this than to worship? If you agree with that, say Amen. Amen. Would you please stand?