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PODCAST That's a Good Question Mom Guilt, Power Struggles, and the Bible's Solution December 9, 2024 Jon Delger & Mitchell Leach Listen to this Episode Hey, welcome to That's a Good Question, the podcast where we answer questions about the Christian faith in plain language. We are a podcast of Resound Media, a place you can trust to find great resources for the Christian life and church leadership. You can also submit questions that we answer here on the show to resoundmedia.cc. If you find this resource helpful, please rate and review the podcast so more people can encounter the life-changing truth of God's word. Also, if you know somebody who could benefit from today's topic or from the questions that we're answering, do us a favor, share the episode with them. My name is Jon. I serve as a pastor and love to be part of this show here with Mitch. Yeah. And today we are here with special guests, the host of the Mom Guilt podcast, Stephanie and Elizabeth. Welcome, ladies. Hi, thanks for having us. Yeah, we're happy to be here. And they're complete strangers to us. We have no idea who you are either. Complete strangers, yep. No. For those of you who don't know, these are our wives. I'm married to Elizabeth and you're married to Stephanie. We get to be a part of this journey with them and their podcast together and we thought it'd be great to have them on. So here we are doing a podcast with our wives who have their own podcast, Dreams Coming True. Yeah, it should be a lot of fun. Yeah. It's gonna be cool. Yeah. So we're gonna talk about a range of topics, but we're gonna start with talking about some topics related to what you guys talk about. You guys wanna just share, what do you guys talk about on the Mom Guilt Podcast? Yeah, so we talk about mom guilt. So one of the things that we found is a lot of moms struggle with mom guilt, feeling like you're never doing the right thing or you're a good mom and you're constantly having this inner dialogue in your head throughout the day. And Elizabeth and I would call each other constantly. All the time. Or text and say, hey, I'm struggling with this. Can you help? And so we found, you know, we're not the only ones that struggle with this. So let's do a ministry. We prayed about it and felt that God was calling us to do it. And we realized a lot of women don't have someone to talk about it with. So you feel very alone. And so our prayer is that women would find a godly woman, mom, that can come alongside them and preach the gospel to them. But if they don't, we would love to be that. We'll be there in their ear until you find it. So seeing as how you have a podcast called Mom Guilt and we don't, I have an important question. Do you think women experience more guilt than men? Yes, I think it's different. Like I think it's probably guilt about different things. That's my gut. Yeah, I think if you break guilt down, it's a working definition, but probably feeling like you've done something wrong or you're not measuring up. So if you're using that type of a definition for guilt, then I'd say it's probably going to hit equally across the board because men and women both sin, I would say, probably about the same amount. But for moms, the mom guilt specifically, I think we just feel it maybe in different ways than you guys do as men. Yeah, like we feel guilty if we give our kids too much screen time or- Too much sugar, if you're late for the school drop-off line. Yeah, where guys might feel guilty if like they haven't mowed the lawn or something's falling apart on the house or maybe like they just feel like they're not being the best provider. So I think the guilt is there. But yeah, for with mom guilt, it's a little bit different. Not that dad guilt doesn't exist, but yeah. We're just not as willing to admit it. Probably. Well, I wonder if that's the thing is women just talk about it more. And so I think you think women feel the guilt more, but we just express it. And sometimes men don't talk about their feelings and keep that a little bit more hidden. Yeah, we're verbal processors. I mean, if I saw a podcast called Dad Guilt, I probably wouldn't listen because I wouldn't want to feel more guilty Is that not just a man thing to say I don't want to talk about it Well, you guys are more sanctified than us you're willing to talk about your guilt I like that that's good So we have a number of listener questions here that I think would be great for us to get to talk about So let's start with this one. So the question is basically this how do you do it all? How do you care for kids, keep the house, work, church, marriage, discipleship in the home? And somebody else also asked a related question, where is the balance between being selfish and taking care of yourself? Well, if you ever figure that out, let me know, because I would also like to do it all. I know, my first thought is you can't. You can't do it all. Yeah. So can you give the list again? What were some of the specifics? I don't want to just kind of breeze over it. I know it's a serious question caring for the kids keeping the house Work if you're somebody works outside of the home church marriage Discipleship in the home. That's some of the things that they listed. Okay discipline at home Really good things and I think I mean it's not bad to want to do all of those things. I know I can definitely relate to feeling really guilty or feeling bad, like my life is falling apart, everything is not going the way I wanted it to. I think a lot of times I would never say I have it all together, but I look at another woman and say she's got it all together. I want to be like her. Yeah. And the reality is we're not God. We can't do everything and be everything and, you know, be everything for everyone at all times, and we're going to fail. There are going to be times where we do well, and there's going to be times where, honestly, we drop the ball. And really, the whole point of our podcast is that our identity is not in what we do. So I would tell this listener, you can't do it all. God will help you. You're not alone. Ask for help. And when you can't do it all, remember that your identity is in Christ. That would be, you know, and just be gentle to yourself because as moms you want to. You want to do it all and you can't. We weren't designed to do it all. Yeah. I think one of the conversations we've had before is that everybody cheats somewhere. It might look like you do it all. I know, I think, Mitch, I think you and I have had that conversation of looking at, maybe looking up to guys that do a lot of writing and teaching. They're still pastors and they've got a bunch of kids and kind of say, well, he must cheat somewhere. Hopefully not on his spouse. Hopefully not. That'd be the worst one to choose. Is it that he never sleeps? Is it that he actually puts in very little time as a pastor, spends the rest of his time speaking and writing elsewhere? Where is it? There's only 24 hours in a day for all of us. So somewhere, something is getting cheated, even if it looks perfect. Maybe it's just a really fast type of... Maybe. Well, I will say that. I will say that there are guys that I look up to that I just want to admit that they have more horsepower than I do. They're smarter, they can do it faster. That's just how it is. And so that's sometimes true. But I'd say more often than not, it's probably that they're putting in less somewhere so they can put in more somewhere else. Yeah. What was the last part of that question? It was about self-care, right? Yeah. The balance. The balance between selfishness and taking care of yourself. Yeah. And I think you're right. Some people maybe don't take care of themselves, like even just basic things like sleep or eating or taking a lunch break or whatever it is. And that can lead to unhealth. But then- Yeah, that can lead to you end up, you know, 10 years down the road, just screaming down the sidewalk or something like that. Yeah, having a mental breakdown, or you're so burnt out, you can't go on. But there is this other side, and we've talked about this on the podcast, where culture kind of puts self-care as like the primary thing. And honestly, as a mom, it's almost like another thing that I'm failing at. It's like, oh man, I'm not doing all these things for myself. I don't have a hobby. I'm not getting time away from the kids. I don't, you know, and it's like, oh man, I'm failing at self-care. And so I, I think self-care can look different. Like it can be reading, it can be listening to music. It doesn't have to be getting away from your family, getting away from your kids. I don't know. What would you add to that? I think one of the things that can be really hard is outside to somebody else, they can look the same But one of them is genuine self-care and the other one is selfishness And I think for me trying to think through how do I discern which is which? You can ask yourself questions like how do I respond when I don't get? Whatever it is that you were trying to do what happens if I had a manicure appointment and it doesn't happen Because to me that exposes in my heart, like, was this like selfishness or was this self-care? Because I think sometimes it can be self-care to go and spend a little bit of time to get a manicure and that's fine. But for me, so often that selfishness is revealed if what happens when this doesn't happen or maybe even just asking the question of what do I have to sacrifice in order to make it happen? Yeah. Could be another really good question that you could ask yourself to determine between the two. Yeah. Cautioning our hearts against self-care, becoming an idol. Because sacrifice is not all bad. No. Right? I feel like that's the missing piece, what people talk about. Again, I want to, you know, we should all, you know, you should strive for getting a good amount of sleep, eating right, you know, like doing healthy exercise, taking care of yourself, spending time in the Word and in prayer. I'd say that's an important part of self-care. But also, I think often when people talk about self-care, they're missing out on that sometimes we have to sacrifice some things in order to do what God's called us to do. I think to me, parenthood is like one of the biggest, well, I feel like I shouldn't be saying this out loud, but it's a big sacrifice in a good way, but it's a big sacrifice. You know, you come home from work or whatever and it's like you want to just have a little bit of time or be able to relax, but no you gotta Buckle in and here we go. Yeah, I love these kids, and I've been called by God to take care of them and sometimes it hurts sometimes physically Sometimes like you know last night Each of the guy didn't tell you this, but each of the girls cats woke me up in the morning. So. Yeah, I say to couples who are going through premarital, like the hardest thing you can do is get married and have kids. Like if you want an easy life, don't do either of those things. But it's totally worth it. You know, it's life-changing in a great way. But it's art. Yeah. I think it's a great way that we can actually image God. And I mean, think about if Jesus would have had the self-care or selfishness mentality when he was approaching the cross, you know? Like, I think we can parent in a way that's sacrificial and we could actually, in a way, almost be like a Jesus figure to our kids. Not saying that we're like obviously going to save our children. We're not. You know, that's Jesus that's doing that. But it's a way that we can kind of give them things to think about as they're looking at Jesus and they see all the sacrifices that Jesus made, you know, it would be fantastic if one of our kids came to you or I and say, hey, I really saw you being like Jesus when I was a kid because you did these things. Yeah. Yeah. I really like the point you made that maybe an indicator of selfishness versus self-care is how you react when you don't get it. Yeah. Be grateful or entitled. Yeah. Yeah. It's something that you, you know, you want to do, you want to have, it's good for you, Yeah, yeah. It's something that you, you know, you want to do, you want to have, it's good for you, but maybe it's become an idol if your reaction is very, very poor when you have to sacrifice it for something else that God has called you to do. Well, and actually something you just said I think is really important, that it's good for you. Because I think sometimes we actually, like, in mom circles can talk about things that are actually maybe not what's best for you. but if you have too much wine and you become drunk, that's not self-care, that's actually sin. The Bible says being drunk is sin. That's maybe even a very surface-level filter of, is this selfishness or is this self-care? Is this sinful? Is this actually good for me? Yeah. Or the mom culture that you need wine to get through the day, just being a mom. Yeah, I think you're so right in that. Yeah. Yeah. So, and to circle back to, so, we talked about how do you do it all? So, I think largely our answer was most people don't actually do it all. A lot of us cheat in some way, shape, or form. But whether you do or don't do it all, like you guys said, it comes down to your identity. What are you finding your identity in? Yeah. Right? Is it what you do or is it that you are a child of God, saved by Jesus, by his blood, and that's where my identity is. It's not in getting it all done or appearing to get it all done. Yeah, exactly. So for us men on this side of the room, how can husbands, as we have wives that struggle with mom guilt, how can we help you all with that? How can we be supportive? We should just record all of our conversations at home because you guys do it so well. Yeah. We'll start a whole nother podcast. We get that? That's recorded? Yeah. Okay. Good. No, I think honestly, I think you guys actually have done a great job because I know for you, John, like when I am feeling really guilty about things, the first thing that you do isn't to tell me to try harder. It's not you need to do this thing because so often I come and I'm really frustrated. The last thing I actually want you to do in that moment, at least at the get go, is tell me how to fix it. I think one of the first things- It took me a long time to learn that. I was about to say that's my go-to. Is to try to understand why are you feeling this way? And then after you figure out why am I feeling this way, then I think there is the shift that I actually desire of, can you please, as an outsider, help me fix this, but first you have to sit and understand, let me tell you why I'm feeling this way or help me understand Why I'm feeling that way because often I think a lot of times you can't even articulate how you feel Yeah, and it feels like something that's trapped in me And like I almost I tell my husband I tell him the job that it almost like haunts me So if I can just get it out there and I can tell my husband about it Even if there's it's not rational or any we know that we both know that, but just somebody who can listen, you can pray with me. It's also, I mean, there's accountability, like should I feel guilty about this? Shouldn't I feel guilty? And often you'll be like, no, you shouldn't feel guilty. And sometimes you're like, yeah, you know, that was sinful. And so it's just not feeling alone. I think that mom guilt makes you feel so alone. Yeah, and that's been really helpful for me. Something that you've done is you'll preface things when you say things like that. You'll say, hey, this might not be rational, but this is how I'm feeling. So I don't have to be worried of like, oh, she actually really thinks this way. You're saying, I'm feeling these feelings and I know they might not be true, but I need to talk about them with somebody. And that's been really, I think a really helpful thing. And you're a good listener when? Sometimes. Yeah. After the kids go to bed. That preface is helpful. Honey, I don't need you to fix this, but I'd like to tell you about a problem that I have. Seriously, we kind of need that sometimes. That helps. I think his husband's asking that question, too. Are you looking for an answer or a solution to this, or do you want me to sit in this space with you? I think as a husband, it can be a really good thing. I think it also really strengthens your marriage because when you have something that you're thinking about, I mean often when John you and I are having conversation about this, sometimes the issue isn't really the issue. Like something that's manifesting itself on the surface is actually a much bigger thing that because we've been married for so many years you know that about me, you're actually able to speak truth to me at a much deeper level because you know where my struggles are with my identity or you know where my struggles are of where I'm struggling with sin in my life. And you as my husband is actually probably the most helpful person I can talk to about that because you know me better than really anybody else. Can I ask this question in the negative? What are things that husbands do that aren't loving to their wives as they're dealing with mom guilt? Hypotheticals only please. Like, what are some ways that would be just clearly not helpful as you guys are processing mom guilt? I think any time you minimize it, like if maybe you're a dad and you- Hypothetically, right? Yeah. Okay. Hypothetically. Yeah, not you. Every time you minimize it, no. Like maybe you're a dad and you don't wrestle with that same guilt, and it can sound silly. I mean, it really can. I think back and I'm like, oh my goodness, I felt guilty because, you know, my kid, another kid sneezed on my kid and I couldn't control it. Like it's not always rational. And so not minimizing and just saying, wow, you're crazy. That's ridiculous. Like move on with your life. I think having sympathy that, um, yeah, that it's a real deep feeling that we have an experience regularly. And so yeah, so just having compassion and even if it is ridiculous or you can't understand it, just trying to be there with your wife. I think sometimes to over-compartmentalize, I think in general, men's and women's brains work differently. And I think sometimes men can compartmentalize things where I personally struggle with that. I don't know if that's all women thing, but for me personally, I'll just say that for me. And so sometimes when you're like, well, just don't think about it. If I'm told that when I'm struggling with something, I'm like, well, that's not helpful because I can't do that. Like I could be, you know, making spaghetti for dinner and I'm thinking about this thing that happened yesterday or three days ago, like I can't compartmentalize. And so trying to force me to do that is something I can for sure grow in, but that sometimes can be really hard. All right, another listener question. As a wife submitting to my Christian husband, how can I encourage him to make submitting to him a joy when he might be missing the mark? Steph, I'm going to let you answer. You guys never experienced that clearly. Only bad answers here. I have to tread very carefully. It's Christmas coming up and I want a present. So, so your is the question essentially, how do I joyfully submit if I feel like my husband is not doing well? It says, how can I encourage him to make submitting to him a joy? So I think, I think she's, I think the writer is very kindly trying to say, how do I help my husband be better when he's missing the mark, but still submit to him. So when he's not leading, how do you encourage him to lead and you not take on that leadership role? Yeah. he's trying to lead. Yeah. I think the first thing would be to pray. Somebody gave me the advice years ago that if I see something that I want to bring to you, John, pray about it for you for 30 days before I see anything. And that's not something that is ever in the Bible. They just pick 30 days, it's about a month, and I'm not saying you always have to wait that long. But there are so many times when you probably don't even know because I never have to say anything because as I'm praying for you, the Holy Spirit actually works in your life and you either say something or it just gets resolved and it's like, Oh, that handled and worked itself out. So I think praying for your spouse when you see something like that would be your first step. Yeah. I'll share a story which has to do with all of us. So this is perfect. I don't even know how many years ago this was, like seven years ago. We were having dinner together and I have wrestled with submission. I think not growing up a believer, it has always been very hard for me. And I remember saying something to John while all of us were together. I said, I think we were talking about this very openly. And I was like, I think I said something along the lines of, but what if I don't trust my husband to make the right decision? And I just kept going back to that. And this had to do with something specific in our life with an investment, right? And you told me, you said, it's actually it's not about trusting your husband. It's about trusting God. And that stuck with me. It did. And because your husband is human. I mean, he is not always going to make the right decision. He's not always going to do the right thing. He's not always going to go about submission in the right way. But I trust God in his design. I trust God in who he's called me to marry. And so I think sometimes when I wrestle with that, I can tell my husband kindly, like maybe if my husband isn't being kind about submission, I don't know what this listener is exactly saying. I can say, hey, like, can you be more loving about that? This is hard. I can gently say, I'm unsure. I don't, this makes me nervous. Like, I think you can verbalize it, but still respect and honor and submit to your husband. And remember that ultimately you're submitting to God. I need that reminder a lot, especially because I want to often take control. Yeah. I'd also say to this woman, it's okay to like go back and look at the game tape. Like I think it's okay if there is a pattern of habitual poor decision-making in a relationship to be able to say, hey, like, let's go back on this last decision that didn't turn out well. Let's talk about what happened here. So that way we can make better decisions in the future. I think that's one way a wife can still submit and be a helper and also help shape things in the future to be, um, to be better. I think when wives can help their husbands make better decisions, that's not usurping their authority. That's, you know, being, being the helper to say, hey, I want to come alongside you and help see you make better decisions. And a wife's husband looks at their wives as, you know, someone who's there to help them and has wisdom and good input, which can take time and practice. And you have to be humble, too, as a husband to be able to receive that criticism. It's hard, but it's so important. And you have to be humble as a wife if it goes wrong to not say I told you. Yeah, those are. Yeah, that you know, you have to. It's all about humility on both ends. It's like we've handed you a loaded gun and you're just like. So I want to hear what you guys would say, though, because as the wife, you don't want to come across nagging. I think for me, I know one of the biggest turnoffs to not get what I actually want is to nag again and again about something. So, can I, like, let me into your brain space, like, what is a way that I could bring something up to you that wouldn't be a turn-off that would actually lead to a better conversation and you not feeling threatened? If I'm bringing up something about a failed leadership or something like that. Yeah, or the encouragement, right, that this question talks about. What kind of encouragement? What do you need to hear? Or how can I help you? That's a tough question. Let me help you. Yeah. I would say maybe do it topless. Oh my gosh. If you're going to fight, do it naked. It's harder to stay mad at each other. That's funny. Maybe after the kids are in bed. Yeah. I wonder if... I have two answers. First is if you're going to be the person to bring it, you know, starting with sweetie, I love you. I'm so thankful that you do try to lead our home well. This sounds like a compliment sandwich. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what? I've always been, I think the funny thing about compliment sandwiches is that we always teach that they're bad, but we all do them anyways. And I think, I think maybe we all actually want them. I don't know. Yeah Okay, now you're gonna manipulate me to do something Well, I feel like yeah, yeah, I mean Maybe that's an advantage though. You see it coming at least you know, what's about to happen and so you can mentally prepare for it Maybe Mitch has better ideas on how our wives can bring it to us But the other thing I was gonna say is actually for men we really love a challenge, but we love it from another man, as hard as that is probably for a wife to conceptually can, you know, how can that work? But I think, so this is maybe, this is not a way that you can, you know, sometimes you do have to directly bring the issue to your husband. But another component alongside of that would be make sure your husband is plugged into a men's Bible study, a men's small group, places where iron sharpens iron, where he's going to get challenged by other men. So I think, yeah, again, you know, there are times when you're going to have to bring stuff to me directly, and I think that's always hard. It's just, those are, I can't think of times when those are fun conversations, right? That's just never fun. That's always going to be a tough way to do it. It still has to be done sometimes, but if you can try to help your husband have good men around him that will challenge him. We actually like to be challenged by other men. Yeah. But not your wife. Unfortunately, I think that's probably true. I don't think in general men like to be challenged. But now again, I'm not saying women shouldn't challenge their husbands. That does need to happen sometimes. But I say we don't get pumped about that. So is there some type of a practical thing that you could set before there's an issue or when there's not an issue that you want to talk about, could you somehow build into your marriage? There are certain times or every four months or set something aside where we're going to evaluate how we're doing in our marital roles, how we're engaging as parents. Because it seems like if you had something in place that that's already there, that is maybe less threatening than kind of out of the blue. Because I know I say that only because you and I have a friend that in their marriage, whenever there's something wrong, the wife asks for a date night. You and I talked about that. That's so hard because then you never view date nights as positive. It's just always, always, there's something wrong. She wants a date night. Yeah. I think that can be hard. I think, yeah, being proactive is a huge component of it, right? Having conversations. I think having conversations when they're small, when the issues are small, because sometimes I think the issues seem like they're small and then they fester and fester and fester and then they become this big thing and it's almost I think it can it can be a spot where you're almost unable to have a conversation that's even sweet or you're walking into it with a level head because it's just it's been something that's going on for months and it's something that really annoys you or really is you're seeing as a sign of unhealth. And then it's, you know, to a critical point rather than saying, hey, when you, you know. Leave the toilet seat out. That was funny. Yeah, yeah, I mean, the million little things that happen in the house, right? But, you know, or, you know, when you say it, say something to me this way, or when you come home and you're not engaged with our kids or me, you know, you know, whatever it is, right? That can be a huge thing. Yeah, don't save it all up for one big time we we unfortunately we have a history of for a number of years i think we made it through this last vacation we did it was the first year for a number of years we we most years we take a fall just two nights away we like to go to traverse city and enjoy just the fall and the colors and all that kind of stuff and for years in a row that was always Usually on the way home, in the car, trapped in the car for a couple hours. But this year we didn't. This year we did it two days before the vacation. But it's like, we would accidentally save up all this stuff that we've been frustrated with each other about, and then it would all of a sudden come out. Well, it's kind of interesting how couples are so different. Like, that's how you guys operate, where we more operate on like, tell each other everything when we think it. Like lack of impulse control and we talk about hard things like all the time, which sometimes can be damaging when it's not thought through. So just different dynamics. Yeah, I think regardless you have to learn how to fight well. One of the things that I like to say is you have to fight like you're on the same team. I like the analogy of, and this probably only works for men, but the analogy of like a basketball team, right? When two guys on a basketball team, on a good basketball team, when they're getting a rebound and they're on the same team, they'll say to each other, same team, so that way they don't wrestle for the ball. There's nothing more embarrassing than two players from the same team wrestling over the ball and either losing it or traveling or whatever, right? Happens in kids' sports. Kids' sports, right? It's very understated. Yes. And so sometimes when Elizabeth and I are fighting, we'll, I'll say, or she'll say, like, we're on the same team. And so it's just reorienting, like, we're fighting with each other right now for something to find resolution, rather than seeing each other as opponents saying, one of us has to win. When you see, like, you guys are on the same team trying to win together, you know, it's easier to find compromise or say, like, yeah, I might be wrong, but I don't have to lose. Like we're on the same team and we're winning. You can win-win. So I think that's part of it, seeing it that way. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think, man, encouraging him and seeing the things that your husband does right, that's a huge thing. Yeah, I think, you know, there's the old adage, like men rarely get complimented. Like, you know, you'll, most men, if you ask them, like someone said something nice about either the way they dressed, the way that they did their hair, the way that, you know, like whatever, and they haven't changed it since, because that's like probably one of the only compliments that they've heard about them. And so, you know, I'm not saying that men are, you know, it's awful for men. I'm just saying, you know, that's one of the, probably one of the hidden downsides of. Yeah, so like as a wife, just like you're quick to criticize, be quick to compliment, right? Like it's not just. Yeah, I would say if you're quicker to criticize than you are to compliment, that's important. I would say for me, and this is just a me thing. See, and you guys made fun of my compliment sandwich. Well, I was... This was kind of what we were saying, right? Compliment and complain. Well, I was going to say, I hate compliment sandwiches. Oh, okay, well. I think when you used to be my boss, one of the things I would say to you, you would start compliment sandwiching me, and I would be like, I want to hear it. It all comes out now. But you were also really good as a boss to be able to say things well, like saying when things were going well, and I knew that things were okay. And so sometimes my wife does the same thing. I'm like, please, I just wanna know what's going on. Don't keep me in suspense any longer. All right, so no compliment sandwich, but just even-handed of both charisma hands. If your husband likes compliment sandwiches, do that. But I'm someone who can't. I'm like, please, I know where you're going with this. There's something bad coming in the middle of this. Well, I think being aware that what you're saying is critical, maybe not in a bad way, critical a lot of times is negative, but I think you can be critical in a loving way. But to realize your words have weight and to be really careful. If you're going to say something that needs to be changed, do so with a loving heart. Yeah. And with not like a smile on your face, but just with a countenance that like, I love you and I care about you because I think there's a way that you can say something that you're like, oh, I don't really, you know, you're saying something different than what your body language is portraying. But you just said genuinely, if your husband knows I genuinely love you, I would hope that that would be heard in a different tone than if you were questioning if I loved you. Yeah. Yeah, I'll give you this. This is one more, but this is Mitchell's secret on Entering into any sort of conflict is just start asking questions One either you've misunderstood something or you don't understand the full picture of something that can be really important so asking a question if you fly in like you're gonna into a fight just Gung-ho and you don't understand the context that makes you look real stupid. But on the other hand, right, if someone has really done something wrong or has the wrong mindset and you ask them questions, you know, that's another way to get clarity. They can clearly state their wrong opinion or whatever wrong worldview or outlook they have. Then you can address it like, hey, these are your words, this is what you said, and this is exactly what I want to talk about. But asking questions is a humble way to approach it. Related to this, another listener question, they write, I was just reading Genesis 3 and verse 16 says, and this is a quote, to the woman he said, I will make your pains and childbearing very severe and painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you. So here's the rest of the question then. If the Garden of Eden before the fall was God's perfect design, is the dynamic of husband being in charge or leading or ruling his wife actually not part of his perfect good design and instead it's actually part of woman's curse or punishment for sin? So questions about Genesis 3.16, specifically that part says her desire will be for her husband and he will rule over you. Okay, does that mean that this whole submission, authority structure thing is actually a result of the fall or was it there before the creation? That's the question. So I could be wrong, but this is how I view that part in Genesis is that submission and authority isn't sinful. I mean, we submit to God, it is good. But the fact that the wife now desires to basically have authority over her husband, like that is the curse, is that wives will want that. We will want to be the ones in charge, but our husbands will rule over us. Yeah, that desire isn't like she's got the hots for her husband. That desire is to rule over her. Yes, exactly. Same word used in Genesis 4, Cain and Abel. Yeah, exactly. And I'm not sure that I articulated that very well. But as far as authority and submission, it is good as part of God's good design for marriage. This is a spot where maybe we're adding a little bit more to Scripture than we need to, right? Like the clear point in this is saying that there is an authority structure that's given post fall, right? And the fall is that that design will now be broken. Correct, right. So so to say that like, well this isn't how it was in pre-fall. Well, the Bible never says that. It says that this is the plan for marriage. And if we believe that God is immutable or he does not change, right, why would he say, well, here's one plan and like, oh, you ruined it. I didn't see that coming. Well, here's a different plan. Also, isn't that why Adam, we said, you know, Adam had the first sin. He did not lead his life well in the garden. He did not. He was there. Yeah, I understand that is, people disagree on that. But right, like can't you say, I mean that scripture says, you know. Yeah. Well, who's credited, you know, like who's later on in scripture, right? It talks about Adam being the one who saved her, so. Yeah, okay. Stephanie, challenge me or tell me your thoughts, because this is hard. It is really hard. I think I actually wrote an article on Resound. So if you are wanting to look at this, it's just a really, a really quick one. But it's called Divine Discipline or Unfair Treatment. Because I think so often as women, we could look at that verse and say, well, that's not fair that God punished her in that way. But basically, one of the things that I've thought through with specifically the marital design is that we see that God's design is good, right? There's a verse in the New Testament, help me with where it's found, but it talks about Adam, it talks about the husband being in the authoritative role based on he was created first. Yeah, 1st Symphony chapter 2. So we see authoritatively Adam already is the head of the household before Eve is getting this curse, getting this consequence of her actions. And so we know that it's not because of her sin that now Adam is in charge. It was God's design for Adam to be the head of the household before that happened. And so I think that's unfair to say that that's part of the fall is that he's in control. I think we can clearly see that that is part of God's design and then that design is now broken because of like what you guys were saying with that desire. It's an unhealthy desire. Like what you were talking about in the next verse, that same word for desire there is, sin is crouching at the door, it has desire over you. So this is an unhealthy desire that is now going to come from Eve towards her husband. It's not like this conflict of who's in charge. Right, the result of the fall is not the authority and submission structure. Actually, the result of the fall is that Eve's not gonna like it. Yeah, men and women are going to try to upend God's authority and submission structure. I also think we have to read this with the understanding that this can't mean something to us that it didn't mean to its original audience, right? So if you look at Jewish culture, like birth order or like, you know, quote unquote birth order, like that mattered. And so, you know, Adam being created first, like there was already a natural authority that he had. So no one who would have read this for the first time would have thought, oh yeah, maybe they were like equals and that this was like some sort of like, you know, symbiotic, perfect relationship where no one really had authority. They would have read this going, oh, the one who was born first or the one who was created first, that's the person who would have the natural authority. Like nobody's reading this thinking, well is this a case for egalitarianism or where men and women. Can you say what egalitarianism is, just in case somebody's not familiar. Where men and women are mutually submitting to each other that there is no true headship or leadership within a marriage. Yeah, so this is a great question. This is something we do have some blogs about at resominated.cc, feel free to check those out. We'll link those in the show notes. Like Mitch mentioned, the Order of the Creation, the Order of the Fall are both instances that we see in Genesis 1 and 2 and then 3. That point to God's design for the hierarchical structure between between husband and wife, men and women, and then also in Genesis chapter 3 another thing is, you know, when God comes looking for who's responsible for the sin, He doesn't call for Eve, He calls for Adam. He asks for Adam to give an account for his family. He knows that Adam is responsible for what happened. And then in the New Testament, Romans chapter 5, yeah, it's Adam who's credited with the fall of all humankind into sin. Yeah, so I mean if you're gonna make a shot and take a shot at the Bible for being misogynistic, you have to have, you can't be heavy-handed, right? It's not that, well, you know, you know, Adam meant something more to God than Eve did. And then forget that, well, Adam also got the brute of the punishment, you know? Like, I think we sometimes as a culture impose something on scripture and we say, well, look at it's being sexist. Like, no, like, you know, part of this, this design is that men are supposed to be the leaders. And at the same time, they're the ones culpable. Yeah, one of the ways that we summarize the Bible's teaching on this topic is that we say God has made men and women equal in value and yet distinct in role. I think when you see God's good design for the beautiful thing that it is, it just makes me excited to want to live it out. If you're kind of questioning, is this really what's best for me? You're not going to want to submit to your husband, but if you can see in the Bible that this is God's beautiful design, well, yeah, sign me up for that. I want that marriage. Right. It is really important to understand this. Yeah, it's not a result of sin, of the fall, that things are this way. This was God's good design. And thus, it's how it should be for believers, people who are in Christ, who are sort of reversing, God is reversing the curse amongst his people. Yeah. Yeah. The funny thing is we would never have this conversation about like headship and like children. You know, when it comes to children, like no one's saying, well, like, oh, we should all make, everyone should make the decisions equally within a household, like parents and children. Like, oh, there's like a good order. Anyone who's been a parent for a minute understands that like, that would be terrible. Like a three-year-old, I think, asked me recently if she could run with knives. Like, no, like that's a terrible idea. And like, there is a good order that God's made things. Um, and sometimes, I don't know. I think again, we're just imposing kind of a cultural bias onto scripture and that's unfair, that's unfair to scripture and how we live it out. Awesome. Well, ladies, thank you so much for the conversation. Yeah. Thanks for having us. Yeah, we appreciate it. It was fun. We'll see you at home. Thanks for listening, everybody. It's been great to have a great conversation about these questions. You can always follow, like, subscribe, YouTube, TikTok, and Instagram, resoundmedia.cc.

Do You Put the Same Value on Unity that Jesus Does? Christian Life Shannon Popkin Author & Podcast Host Live Like It's True Podcast Published On: January 19, 2024 Meg and I had been friends for several years and enjoyed a sweet relationship. She was part of a group I helped lead at our church. One day, Meg called to tell me that she disagreed with a decision that had been made for our group. In fact, she was hurt and offended that we would even consider a decision like this. Well, this surprised me. It was a small decision, involving a slight change. We had not anticipated that anyone would be hurt or offended. I shared with Meg the thought process behind the decision, but as often is the case, some of the data points were private and I couldn’t mention them. Meg was not satisfied with the reasons I gave, probably due in part to the gaping holes in my explanation. She again told me that she was hurt and offended—this time with more edge in her voice. Well, this made me angry and frustrated! Sharing the goodwill behind the small decision had made no difference. Things escalated quickly. I unwisely told Meg that I was hurt and offended over the fact that she was hurt and offended! Didn’t she trust us? Didn’t she know that we loved her and were trying to do what was best? When I raised these questions, Meg raised questions of her own. What did I have to be hurt and offended about? She had done nothing wrong. She was in a position of being hurt and offended, not me. Oh, what a circular, tangled mess it quickly became, sparked by a small, insignificant decision made for our group. After several rounds of, “But I’m hurt and offended!” I excused myself from the call. Nothing was being resolved. It was clear that I needed to do something differently, but what? Promoting Unity at Church Conflict is like a spidery crack through the unity of the Church. Left unchecked, conflicts can fracture relationships that took years to build, and they can split close-knit groups of Christians into “sides.” Sometimes the division can even outlive the disagreement. The “sides” still exist, but no one can remember how the dispute began. I’m sure men have their ways of holding onto conflict, but women in particular, hold onto things. We tend to take disagreements personally—especially at church. When someone tells us that the way we’re trying to serve Jesus is wrong or that our viewpoint is invalid, we can be easily provoked. Emotions boil over and divisions form. Tempers flare and gaps widen. Hurt feelings abound and resentment grows. As conflict spreads, we feel threatened and confused, wondering, Why is everyone against me? I was only trying to serve the Lord! That’s how I felt about my conflict with Meg. She was overreacting to something so small! But now I was overreacting. I spent hours thinking about and crying over the issue. I dreaded having to see Meg on Sunday at church. I didn’t know how I would even make eye contact. What a far cry from God’s blueprint for His Church. Read Ephesians 4:4–6 , and count how many times you see the word “one”: There is one body and one Spirit . . . one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. The Church is not supposed to be filled with women who avoid eye contact in the atrium after the worship service. So how can we as women in leadership help cultivate unity when the women around us (and including us) are so prone to conflict? Humility’s Effect Jesus’ life was spent drawing people from conflict into unity—both with God and each other. And how did Jesus accomplish this? If I had to choose a one-word description of Jesus’ birth, life, and death, it would be humility. The exalted One emptied His regality and veiled His glory. Rather than coming to earth demanding we serve Him, our King served us and sacrificially laid His life down. And what was the purpose in this? Jesus died in our place so that we could be reconciled to God. We, who were far off and hostile toward God, were brought near and given access to the Father! And we weren’t just welcomed as individual daughters; we became members of the household of God—part of a family with brothers and sisters ( Eph. 2:13 – 19 )! As members of this family, our work is to continue Jesus’ work. We are to build each other up in love and cultivate unity among each other. And like Jesus, we accomplish this through humility. Pride in Conflict Conflict naturally draws out our pride , not humility. In conflict, we’re compelled to show how wrong the other person is. We pick up a millimeter stick (appropriate for measuring specks) to count up the 762 flaws that we see in the other person. And then we pick up a yardstick (appropriate for measuring logs) to minimize our own speck-sized flaws. But Jesus said: “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye” ( Matt. 7:5 ). It’s pretty humbling to learn that a log, which you were unaware of, is sticking out of your eye. It’s even more humbling to be told about the log by the person you were just offering your eye surgery services to. Conflict forms when two people say, “No, you’re the one who isn’t seeing clearly!” But unity forms when one of them says, “You might be right.” Women who want to cultivate unity are the ones who lay down the millimeter stick. They stop taking inventory of their sister’s flaws. And if their sister is the one picking up the millimeter stick, they choose to listen rather than becoming defensive. Either way, massive quantities of humility are required if unity is ever to be restored. Putting to Death When I called Meg back, I was committed to not defending myself—not even once. I wanted to be humble and listen to her concerns with an open heart. This was not easy. Meg was even more hurt after our first conversation and even more critical of me than before. Her words flowed freely as she listed out my flaws in detail. As she talked, how I longed to cut in and defend myself. She was listing out the very things I saw in her! I ached to repeat how hurt and offended I was and to offer my own list of criticisms. But I didn’t. Instead, I took careful notes, thanked Meg for her input, and promised to prayerfully consider what she had said. I hung up and groaned privately to the Lord, saying, “Surely this is what you meant by ‘putting to death the flesh!’” It was one of the hardest conversations I’ve ever had. But you know what? There was some truth in what Meg said. I didn’t see it right away, but as my emotions subsided in the days following, God used Meg’s input to show me some things that I needed to work on. Now, I didn’t put more emphasis on Meg’s perspective than God’s. I reminded myself that I am loved and accepted by Him and that His grace is bountiful enough to cover each of my flaws. But I did pray carefully through Meg’s complaints. I repeatedly refused to focus on her flaws and instead focused on my areas for growth. In the end, I apologized to our group about some of the concerns Meg had raised and helped revise our earlier decision. Conflict was averted, unity was restored, and all was well. A Worthy Calling Now, that is just one example. I could tell of ten other conflict situations in which I tried to humble myself yet unity wasn’t restored, groups still split, and relationships were never the same. Unity is not something we have ultimate control over — leader or not. We can only do our small part, with the influence that God has allotted. But even as a small member of the Body of Christ, it’s good for me to remind myself of my calling. Ephesians 4:1–3 says: Walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. I once was far off and alienated from God. I had no hope and was without God in the world ( Eph. 2:12 ). But by the blood of Jesus I have been brought near and included into the family of God! My attitude toward maintaining unity within this family is a reflection of how I feel about being called inside. How Much Is Unity Worth? Unity is costly. You might even have to take dictation on your list of flaws. In my instance, Meg never came to see things my way. She never apologized. And I never got the satisfaction of defending myself. But maintaining unity with Meg, and ultimately our group, was worth it. Maintaining unity in your church or ministry is worth it, too—even if it’s costly. Jesus, our preciousSavior, died to bring us into this family. He said that our unity with God and each other was worthy of His death. If you’re a leader, your role is to go first. You can’t lead others to have extravagant humility unless you first display extravagant humility. This is what Jesus did for us! So how much are we willing to spend on unity? Will we put to death the desire to be honored, to defend ourselves, and to have our own way? Do we value unity the same way Jesus does? Consider a conflict you’re facing as you pray these verses to the Lord: Lord, I choose to do nothing from rivalry with ______________ or conceit toward ___________. In humility I’m counting _______________’s needs, perspectives, and desires more significant than my own. Lord, I choose not to look out only for my own interest regarding __________________. I will also look out for the interests of _____________________. I want for my _______________ (group/church) to have the mindset among ourselves which Jesus had. May we be people who make ourselves nothing, who humble ourselves, and who become obedient—like Jesus who even died on a cross. (From Philippians 2:3–8 ) More Blogs You'll Like Is Prioritizing Love Un-Christian? What Does The Bible Say? Read More More Than Meets the Eye Discovering God’s Purposes for Motherhood Read More Mom Guilt and How to Fight It Read More

What kind of counseling should you expect from your pastor? Christian Life Jon Delger Multiplication Pastor Peace Church Published On: November 21, 2023 You’re looking for counseling. You want a Christian perspective. Who better to ask than your pastor? However, you know that your pastor has a lot of other things on his plate. He doesn’t just do counseling, he also preaches, teaches, and leads your church. Wait… does he do counseling? Does he charge for counseling? I really need some help. What should I expect from him? I can’t speak for all pastors, but let me try to speak for “the average pastor” on this one. Let me share my standard response when asked for pastoral counseling from someone in my church and suggest some next steps you can take if you are interested in pastoral or Christian counseling. “Pastor, I am struggling, I think I need counseling, can you help?” Each time I hear these words, I have two reactions. First, my heart breaks. I want to respond: “I am all yours, I will do whatever it takes, and I will be with you every step of the way.” I want to solve all their problems and heal all their pain. However, by God’s grace, a second reaction then strikes me. A voice inside my head reminds me: “I am neither Jesus nor Superman, I don’t have all the answers, and I can’t do it all.” Over time, I have come to a few realizations about pastoral counseling: 1) I do a disservice to people by promising too much. Have you ever been promised a lot by someone (doctor, financial adviser, mom, dad, spouse) only to have them not deliver? Would it have been more or less painful for them to tell you realistically what they could do for you, even if it wasn’t all you hoped for? This leads to my next two realizations. 2) I keep people from receiving stronger support when I promise too much. When someone promises to deliver exactly what you need, what do you do? You stop searching for further help. Most pastors are not trained counselors. Sure, we took a couple of counseling classes in seminary, but that is a far cry from being a trained professional. Some pastors may be uniquely gifted, have special training, and feel equipped to provide more than average. However, in many cases, the average pastor is best suited to do triage, not provide full treatment. 3) Giving people realistic expectations from the start is important. When I overpromise or am unclear about what people can expect from me, it leads to broken promises, hurt feelings, strained relationships, and often prevents someone from getting the help they really need. As a rule, I offer people a realistic sense of what they can expect from me, right from the beginning. When asked for pastoral counseling, I let people know that I can offer three things to them: 1) I can listen. Sometimes the best medicine is someone to listen to our story, ask good questions, and let us work our way through the issue. This may sound small, but it is a valuable resource. 2) I can pray. I cannot solve their problems, but God has the power, wisdom, and goodness to do whatever is needed in the situation. I am always happy to pray with people in person or over the phone. 3) I can share Scripture. I still try to be careful here. I am not promising to show you the answers to your problems in the Bible. Scripture doesn’t work that way. God’s Word offers us principles to think through our situation as well as encouragement and hope. I offer 1-3 meetings of one hour. During these meetings, I seek to do the three things listed above, assess their needs, and direct them to further help as needed. Sometimes this means referring them to a professional counselor. Sometimes I direct them to a support group, mentor, or Christian brother/sister to walk with them through their situation. Professional counseling is a great resource and no one should be ashamed to take advantage of it. However, the church should also be a community of people who can help each other (not just the pastor or the professionals). In recent years, some of the best biblical counselors around have created [great resources]( http://ccef.org ) to equip Christians to help each other. “Pastor, I am struggling, I think I need counseling, can you help?” Here is my standard response: I am so sorry to hear that. I would love to hear more about your situation and see how I can help. Because I care about you and want to make sure you receive the help you need, let me share up-front what I can offer as a pastor. I am not a trained counselor. As a pastor, there are three things I can offer you: I can listen, I can pray, and I can share Scripture. I typically meet with people from one to three times to do those three things. During that time I also try to help you arrange further support as needed, whether that is a professional counselor, a small group, or a Christian friend who can walk with you through this time. I would be happy to get together so I can listen to your story, pray with you, and share Scripture. Can I connect you with my assistant to schedule a time to meet? You’re looking for pastoral or Christian counseling, what are your next steps? 1) Ask your pastor what he offers. Don’t hesitate to reach out for help, but give your pastor the chance to be clear about what he has to offer. Consider sending him a link to this article and give him permission to be clear about what you can expect from him. 2) Ask your pastor for a referral. If you know already that you want ongoing counseling, ask your pastor for help finding a counselor. Not all “Christian counseling” is equal, unfortunately. Ask for help finding a Bible-saturated, gospel-centered, Christ-focused counselor who will share God’s Word with you, rely on the Holy Spirit, and use the best of what psychology has to offer. A word to church members and leaders looking on… If your pastor does not offer all the counseling you think he should, it is not because he is heartless, impersonal, or lazy. If he knows how to say “no” to some requests, it is because he knows his strengths and weaknesses and is seeking to help people in the most effective way possible. This is wisdom. Praise God that he has given it to your pastor. More Blogs You'll Like Is Prioritizing Love Un-Christian? What Does The Bible Say? Read More More Than Meets the Eye Discovering God’s Purposes for Motherhood Read More Mom Guilt and How to Fight It Read More

PODCAST That's a Good Question Embracing the Mission: A Conversation with Jim Essian November 11, 2024 Jon Delger & Mitchell Leach Listen to this Episode On this episode of That's a Good Question, Jon and I interview Jim Essian, the founder of a church planning network in the Dallas-Fort Worth area in Texas. The goal of our conversation is that Christians would grow in their faith and their hearts would grow in desire to see the gospel advance in their communities. Without further ado, let's jump into this week's episode. Hey everyone, welcome to That's a Good Question, a podcast of Peace Church and Resound Media. You can find more great content for the Christian life and church leaders at resoundmedia.cc. That's a Good Question is a place where we answer questions about the Christian faith in plain language. I'm Jon. I serve as a pastor as well as a part of this show. You can always submit questions at peacechurch.cc/questions . Today I'm here with Mitch, as always, as well as special guest, Jim Essian. Yeah. A few little things about Jim that might be interesting for you as a listener. Jim played many years in the minor leagues and left baseball and felt the call to become a church planter, planted Paradox Church in 2011 in Fort Worth, Texas, where he continues to serve as lead pastor. Jim founded the church planning network, Plant Fort Worth, which has planted 15 churches in the last six years. Also, he's an author of many different books including his last, Send, loving your church by praying, giving, and going. Jim, if you would, I just want to say a special thank you for hopping on and a welcome. If you would, tell us a little bit more about yourself outside of baseball and church planting. What do you occupy your time with now. Yeah, thanks for having me, guys. Absolutely. Married to my wife, Heather, now for almost 21 years. And we've got three girls. Love their ages, 14, 12, and 9. We're just having a blast with marriage and family. And obviously, ministry is a big part of what we do. And our kids and my wife is involved. And so I love where we're at right now. I love loving life. So things are well. Jim, before we get going, you mind tell us a little bit about what made the transition for you from life in baseball to life as a pastor and a church planter? Well, I mean, baseball decides for you, typically. I mean, there's a few guys out there in the world that get to decide what they want to do. But typically, you know, in professional sports, you're done when they say you're done. You know, I could have kept playing and chasing a dream, but after eight years in the minor leagues and I've been married for a couple of years, it was time. And, you know, I'm not going to over-spiritualize it. It wasn't because I was going to move immediately into pastoral ministry. That was not exactly what I had in mind. So that was just the Lord dragging me out of something that I had known really my whole life. You know, my dad was a professional baseball, still is in fact, six decades. And so that was all I knew baseball, but the Lord had something better. And so he dragged me out and here I am. That's awesome. That's how he does it all the time, right? Drags us, kicking and screaming. Oh man, yeah, yeah. He's got a calling for us. Well, on that note, are all believers called to be on mission? This is something you talk a lot about in your book. I'd love to just hear your thoughts about this. Are all believers called to be on mission? And if so, why is it important that all believers consider themselves sent on mission by Jesus? Yeah, I mean, I love the process of writing the book to sort of organize some of those thoughts. You know, we have, as pastors, we have theological categories and then hopefully we're good at taking those theological precepts or ideas or categories and placing them in the hands of our people in a way in which they can actually do something with. And so, the first two chapters of the book are all about God's vision for the world. Why is there a world? Why is there a universe that exists at all? What is God doing? And then the second chapter is God's vision for us. And the big idea there is just that those two things are pretty inextricably linked. That God's vision for the world is to cover the world with the knowledge of His glory. And we are, in part, I mean, we are image bearers of his glory, and then we're called to be witnesses to his glory. And so, yeah, I mean, whether we know it or not, or whether we are intentionally doing it or not, if you are a follower of Jesus, you are on that mission, the mission to make much of Jesus and his glory known. It's really just a matter of how much, how how intentional do we want to live on that mission? And do we know? And I've just found, this is real general, not just specific to the mission of God or the book itself. I found that, specifically in the American church, if we have a problem with the American church, pastors should stop blaming the people and we should start taking responsibility for ourselves as leaders. It is our job to teach them. It is our job to set an example. It is our job to tell them. And in part, the book is written as a way to help pastors help their people see the mission that God has called them to. Yeah, amen, totally. What are some symptoms or what are some side effects of Christians not knowing that mission and trying to live out the Christian life? What are some things that you've seen as a lead pastor in that? Yeah, I mean, we're gonna, I said this yesterday in a sermon, and I'm sure you guys have quoted it as well, D.A. Carson, just talking about how we don't drift towards holiness. We don't drift towards God's mission. We don't drift towards feeling near to God. We don't drift towards a healthy marriage. We don't drift, it's just not the way that that works. We are fundamentally still broken, sinful, learning how to live out our new nature in Christ. And so, yeah, I mean, if we're not moving in that direction, we'll be moving towards something. We were made to be...we were made to be glorious. We were made to desire beauty. We were made to have purpose and meaning. And we're going to find the counterfeit of that if we don't...if we're not on the road to the way God has designed that for us. So, you're going to find yourself chasing after God's stuff and not God. And of course, that's just where we end up wrestling, struggling, and in the places where all of us can find ourselves in. Right. It's like the second law of thermodynamics for spirituality, right? Everything tends towards decay. That's true in the spiritual world, too. If you sit still, you're drifting in the wrong direction. You don't actually stand still. Totally. And there's also just, I mean, there's also a great joy to it. I think we can have a tendency to do, you know, we ought to, and we do, we ought to be doing certain things and a part of certain things, but there's also the promises that there's great joy in all of that. Yeah. You know, Jesus doesn't say, you know, in his parable, you know, hey, good job following the rules. Now, you know, now go to heaven. He says, you know, well done, good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of your master. A man finds a treasure buried in the field, in his joy goes and sells all that he has that he might buy the field. So there's also, the promise is there's great joy in all of that as well. Yeah, totally. Jim, I loved the way that you opened your book. If you don't mind, I'm going to read actually just the first two paragraphs here quick for everybody just because I loved the way that this started. This is the beginning of Jim's latest book. He says, you are in the midst of a global movement, a movement that is advancing in every culture and place across the millennia, a spirit-filled, gospel-armed people who will not stop or even slow down until we break through the gates of hell and welcome our King and His Kingdom. We will not lose because He has already won." Amen. I love that. I was hooked right away in the first couple of sentences there. So speaking of that, Jim, do you mind just talking a little bit about how is our theology of Jesus' victory through the cross and the resurrection. How does that affect how we think about the church, and especially church planting? Yeah, I mean, I was joking about it with my team this morning in regards to something else. But it was kind of, if you watched the Lions game last night, it's kind of like that. It's like, man, things are not going well, but it just feels inevitable. We just knew somehow they were going to pull it off. And the Christian life is much like that. Here's a free sermon illustration for you guys for next Sunday. Yeah. The Christian life is so much like that. I mean, there are seasons, there are quarters, there are moments, there's time. There's this particular drive where man, it doesn't feel like we know what we're doing. And five picks in one game, I need to stop this analogy, I'm sorry. But you know, there's just, we know, we know that things are going to be hard and there's going to be times where it doesn't feel like it's going well, but to know that we have already won just pulls, like all of the weight gets pulled out from that moment. I mean, it just keeps everything in perspective. And so I do think people in the Reformed camp can have a tendency to not focus on the victory that we have. And instead we're focusing on the depravity of man or something else. Whereas we can learn from the black church or even some of the charismatic churches that we are meant to live from victory first. The battle has been won. And so we know how this thing ends. And Revelation was written to encourage us. We know how this thing is gonna go down. And so that should just give us a lot of confidence when we think about the mission of God, the multiplication of His church, our part in that, our role in that, our money, our prayers. I mean, we're the ones that believe that it's God who saved, so why wouldn't we be the most bold in our proclamation of the gospel? I mean, all of those things should give us a lot of confidence. Yeah, amen. Man, I gotta tell you, this is like, I feel like the tides have turned here. It used to be that all of our analogies about the lion were very negative. That was the most optimistic analogy I've heard. Yes, it brings a choice, that's right. A different season in Michigan. Well, you know, usually I also say that you can only insult the Lions if you're from Michigan. But Jim, you're from Detroit, so it's OK. We'll go with it. I grew up watching Barry Sanders on the 50-yard line, man. Yeah, that's awesome. There you go. That's awesome. Well, hey, so to pivot to talking a little bit more specifically about church planning. So let's tackle this from a couple of different angles. If somebody listening is in a church that is healthy, that is growing, and that is maybe thinking about church planting in the near future, what are some things that they could do to help foster that culture that leads to church planting? Maybe they're a pastor, maybe they're an elder, maybe they're just a faithful member volunteer serving. How can they contribute to the sort of culture that leads to multiplication, planting more churches? Yeah, I mean, a couple of things. One, I think you have to start with vision, which is why that's how I started the book. I mean, I think for anything when it comes to church, when it comes to the mission of God, when it comes to the glory of God, we start with vision. You know, we tell our team this, like we don't want to recruit to need. We want to recruit to vision. And, you know, I need you might get somebody to show up next Sunday or next Saturday or, you know, whatever, but when they are captured by a vision of God, the glory of God, and the mission of God, you have them for life, not just a Sunday. And so I would just always start with vision. You know, that's going to sustain us. That's going to be the thing that endures us in ministry, whether that's vocation ministry, vocational ministry, or not. You know, I've got people in my church, we're about 14 years old now as a church plant, and I've got a couple of dozen people that have been around about 14 years, ministering, leading, serving, and they're not here because I'm some sort of great leader or because, you know, standing in the midst of the churches, ruling and reigning, and they're captured by that vision. So one, you've got to have a vision. It should be the vision that God has. Don't come up with your own. And then two, I think they need to know that this is, like, anyone can get in on this. One of the reasons I, you know, everything I've just told people about this book, like what is the book about, what is the book about, the book is about I am a ex-jock preacher with no seminary degree, no college degree, and I've been able to be on the front lines of Jesus's mission, watching Jesus flex in church planting here in Fort Worth, throughout the country and throughout the world. I've seen churches planted in Brazil. I've seen the darkness pushed back in my city. I've been able to be at the front lines of God's mission, and if I can, then anyone can. And so anyone in our churches can be a part of this, and they can get in on it. And I just think that's amazing, that if you paint this big, beautiful vision of the glory of God and the mission of God and the victory of God, and then you say you can be a part of that, no matter who you are or what you can get in on this, that's a great start. And then from there, I think it would just be championing multiplication. You can't, I mean, there's, I won't remember it, but there's a quote in the book from Tim Keller, because you have to quote Tim Keller if you're going to be able to take it. He says some of the effect of like, if you don't have a multiplication culture and you just go plant a church, it's going to be like, that's almost dangerous to a church. There has to be already a culture of multiplication. This has to be something that's being championed and celebrated. It's a culture that's created where multiplication is just normal. We're going to multiply disciples. We're going to multiply small groups. We're going to multiply leaders. We're going to multiply campuses, services, churches. The gospel is always moving. It's not static, it's dynamic, it's news, it's meant to be shared, it's meant to be moved. And so I think developing a culture of multiplication is really important. Amen. So, you know, so the vision is so exciting, I think, and so easy to grab onto for so many people. But one of the objections that I have heard sometimes that I'm sure you've experienced as well. So we at Peace Church by God's grace, where Mitch and I pastor, we got to plant a campus that will become an independent church just a year ago. And so we saw this as well. Maybe you've heard this before, but people will say, well, man, that means I've got to say goodbye to some brothers and sisters in Christ because either they're leaving to go be part of this new church plant or I'm leaving to go be part of a new church plant. You know, you go from a church that's probably of a decent size, usually when you plant, you're a healthy size and now you're gonna go start this much smaller thing. How have you handled that as a pastor and church planner, helping people go through that, saying goodbye, realizing, man, there are some people that you're not gonna see every Sunday morning anymore. You know, there's some downsides, but obviously there's a much bigger upside. Yeah, totally. Yeah, there's a whole chapter in the book called Gospel Goodbyes for this very reason. You know, if you have a multiplication culture you immediately realize you learn very quickly that that means you're saying goodbye even if you have a small group of somebody in my small group multiplies our relationship is now changing to some degree and you know this is the paradox of the gospel at least one of many, and that's that this goodbye is both a grief, excuse the city noise behind me, but it's both a grief but also a celebration. We are sorrowful yet always rejoicing, the Apostle Paul said. And so we're celebrating because the gospel is going forward, we're multiplying, but we also acknowledge the grief. And that's just kind of one of the things you want to do is just acknowledge, yeah, this stinks, that our relationship's gonna change. This stinks, that you're not gonna go to this church, or you're not gonna be a part of this small group, or you're not gonna go overseas, and I'm gonna be missing my friend. And our relationship is going to change. You think of Paul in Acts 20, when he's leaving the Ephesian elders, and everyone is weeping. You think of the disciples when they finally realized what Jesus is saying, that he's going to go. And Jesus said, sorrow has filled your heart. So there's just an acknowledgement, I think, to the grief that would be healthy and mature and would make sense. All while we understand the joy of the celebration in the multiplication that's happening there. Yeah, yeah, totally. One of the language things we've tried to use is to try to talk about, you know, people are really tempted to say well our small group is splitting or our church is splitting. No, no, it's not a split. It's a multiplication, you know, different math term, right? It's multiplication not division. That's what's going on. Yeah, we started talking about actually our small groups don't even multiply, they just plant. We call them city groups. Just to, again, we want one of our strategies, you know, we have three strategies, preach the gospel, plant churches, and push back darkness. And we wanted people to see that they're actually a part of planting churches, even if they don't go to one of our church plants. Because, you know, it's that multiplication culture that breeds a new church. And so even if they never are a part of one of our church planting teams, or even the lead church planter, they're still a part of church planting. And so I do think language is important. Saying gospel goodbyes, would you say that that's maybe the hardest part of planting churches, or have you seen something else in your experience as a church planter that makes it difficult? Yeah, I think relationally, emotionally, that's the hardest part. No, I think, I mean, it's hard to say what is hard about it because we've just been so blessed by it and it's almost like breathing for us. It's just not something that we, you know, consider a loss at all. Sure. So the hardest part is just the work of, it's the work afterwards. I think the hardest part, I'm really good at starting things, I'm not great at the details, I'm not great at, I'm really good at starting things and handing them off. Plant Fort Worth, the network, the city network here that we started, that's run by Ben Connolly, he's world famous in doing, working for church planning organizations and running church planning residencies, that's something I would be terrible at. So I've got wonderful people that do a great job of all of that, but this is just, you know, it's once the church is off the ground, how do you continue to come alongside that church and it grows, it grows in all the ways in which it needs to grow and should grow. That's probably the hardest part for me personally is, you know, these are all my buddies, but it's a lot of them and it's a lot of work and I've got other work. Yeah. And just, you know, continuing to build that family and our family of churches and caring for these men and their teams and seeing them grow and flourish and get healthy and all of that is, that's a lot of the hard work. It's easy for us to raise up a guy, because that's something the Lord does anyways, and then send him out with, I mean, Caleb, our next church plan, he'll be headed out here in January, here in a couple of months. He's got right now 85 committed. And so that'll probably grow to about 100 or so by the time he gets to January. So that's really easy to just say, this is what we do guys and this is what we're about and so go. And they go. So that part, easy is maybe too strong of a word, but the harder part is how do we get these churches to continue to grow and get healthy? Yeah. Hey, this is Mitchell and I wanted to butt in and interrupt our amazing interview with Jim Essien to bring you an exclusive offer from our sponsors today, Moody Publishers. Outside of them giving us this deal, Moody Publishers has been a resource that I've always run to. They're an amazing group of people that publish great stuff. If you're looking to dive deeper into faith and grown wisdom, discover books that will inspire, challenge, and transform with Moody Publishers. From trusted authors to fresh voices, Moody offers resources that equip you for life's journey with Christ. And now we have an exclusive offer for you. That's a good question, listeners. An offer for you if you use promo code RESOUND40 to get 40% off with your next purchase. Whether you're searching for devotionals, study guides, or impactful reads, Moody Publishers has something for everyone. Don't miss out on this. Visit moodypublishers.com and use code RESOUND40 at checkout. Again, that's moodypublishers.com and use RESOUND40 at checkout. Enrich your faith today. And now let's jump back into our interview with Jim Essien. I wanna ask one more question about those gospel goodbyes. How have you seen that impact the sending church in a positive way? We've done this at so many different stages. It's really, it changes at the different stages of church size that we've been at. Our first church we planted, we were maybe 600, 700 people. And so, that kind of gospel goodbye, and we sent out 100 people with that one. Yeah. So that sort of gospel goodbye, you have a lot of relational ties. And of course we're planting just down the street. So it's not totally, you know, we're never gonna see them again, but it's definitely a thing where these were pastors that were planting that had deep impact in the lives of our people. And so it's not just the people that are going, it's the pastor that is going. They married some of our people, they've counseled them, they've prayed with them, they've cried with them, they've visited them in the hospital, and now in a lot of ways they think of him as maybe their pastor. And for whatever reason, maybe they're not going with him for some, you know, because typically it's geographic. There's a lot of... it can definitely have an effect on, we've had a few instances where it's, you know, that was the person that really pastored me and these other elders, I just don't really know. And so you have, you know, things like that, but all of that is just create shepherding moments. Yeah. Every moment is a shepherding moment is kind of one of the things that we say. And so there's, that's not a bad thing. That's just an opportunity. Yeah, totally. So another experience that we have here in West Michigan, I imagine you can relate to in Texas as well, is that you'll hear people say, well, man, why would you guys plant another church? There's so many churches. You know, there's churches on every street corner, people will say, around Grand Rapids, Michigan, where we're at. You know, why do you think, Jim, why do you think we need more churches in areas that do have lots of churches, and why do we need more churches? Yeah, interesting enough, typically those people, I don't know if you found this to be true, but typically those people are people that have been at a lot of the churches in the city. And so, you know, I would gently push back there and say it seems like you liked, you know, all of the options and you've enjoyed, you know, dropping your feet into different churches and seeing which one fits for you. Man, you know, there's so many ways, so many reasons why it's still right and good to do this that I could probably list off 10. One would just be, again, I would just keep going back to vision. The very nature of the gospel is that it multiplies. And so, in a healthy place, this should just be natural. It's just going to happen that the gospel continues to just move and do what it does. Two, unless, you know, unless, I mean, if a guy wants, if a guy on my team or if a guy comes to me and says, not going to give him my job. He's going to have to go to another church to have my job. And so why would we keep, you know, my, why is the lead pastor role or any role in the church off limits to anyone else? I mean, if God is raising up another great kids minister, if God is raising up another great worship pastor, if God is raising up another great lead pastor, why would we not want to multiply that as well. Three, church closings happen all the time. Four, population growth is happening in certain areas of the country. And so there's reasons for wanting to do that. Another great reason, I'd probably put this at the top as well, is just there's something about a new church that tends to attract new kinds of people, is a little bit stronger in evangelism, is going to just create another expression of the local church in a city that's going to be helpful to the church in that city. And one of the things I love about Plant Fort Worth is that we are a network of churches in one city, Fort Worth, and you look at like the guys on our lead team, for example, you've got Presbyterian Church and Pentecostal Church and Black Church, and you've got this sort of broad swath of the church in Fort Worth. And you talk about unity, like everybody wants unity in the church, that's how you get it. And I just think there's so many benefits to it. Nobody really wants their church to get bigger except for the lead pastor anyways. So it's not just, why are we wanting one church to carry the evangelical, I'm sorry, the evangelistic and discipleship load of a whole city. I just don't understand that strategy, that theology, or that philosophy. Yeah, yeah, totally. Well, and one of the things that we've heard is people saying, well, there's already churches in that place where you're going to plant. Why plant another one in that place? And there's a lot of different answers to that. One would be just that statistically, new church plants have a much higher ability to reach new people than existing longstanding churches do. That's just, we could talk about the reasons why, but the data just shows us that. That if somebody who's not currently part of a church is more likely to attend a brand new church plant than a longstanding church. That's just kind of how it is. From our experience at Church Plant, too, in the most recent plant that we did, we didn't see a ton of people leave other churches and come to that church. It was people who weren't part of a church, and they started coming. Or they were people from the sending church that went with to be part of that. I don't have any data on this. You get a lot of specialized mission as well. You know, there's, you know, I mean, so much of our DNA obviously goes with the sending churches or with the church plants, but they're, you know, I mean, Pillar Church is in a very unique part of Fort Worth and the ministry that Canaan can do there is gonna be much more specific and contextualized than what we could try to do as the mother church in center city Fort Worth. So our church plants end up in very specific, unique neighborhoods with defined geographic boundaries and they have their own different unique ministries that they can emphasize and put energy towards that maybe we wouldn't as just a large mega church in center city Fort Worth. Yeah, yeah, totally. Well, so we've got to talk a ton about church planting, so I think people listening are in different places. Some getting to be part of a church, part of a church plant, which is awesome. Some, maybe not, maybe asking the question, all right, so if I'm not part of a church that is planting or if I'm not part of a church plant, how can I still be part of God's mission, what he's doing in the church? So let me ask you this, Jim. How can the average Christian dream big for the glory of God and for the mission he might have for them? Yeah, that's my, I mean, the last chapter in the book is called Dream Big. And really it's just an opportunity for, again, so I'm going to go back to that question I brought up earlier. If I can get in on God's mission, then so can you. You know, anyone can. And, you know, there's a couple of things. One is just talking about finding your place. So part of the book is also, what is my role in all of this? How do I figure out what God would have for me? And there's local missions, and there's church planting, and there's global missions. And so Dream Big is just really about you sitting before the Lord and actually believing Ephesians 3 is true. That God is wanting to grow your heart in such a way that you would be able to comprehend with all of the saints the fullness of God's love for you and for the church. And that he would then do anything, right? Anything. He would do more than you could ask or imagine because he wants his glory known through the church. That's just Ephesians 3, 20 and 21. And so, the opportunity to sit down and actually pray and sit before the Lord and just say, God, I wanna dream big for how I might be a part of this huge thing that you're doing and to know that you've just promised that you would do more than that. You know, Jesus prays or tells us in what, John 15, John 16, maybe John 14, whatever you pray for, if you pray in my name, I will do. And we, you know, everybody's, you know, everybody's had that, every pastor's had that question asked them, how is it that I pray about things and God doesn't do them? Well, because what he's talking about there is praying according to his will and his word and his promises. And so there's a promise in Ephesians 3.20 that if we are praying that God's glory would be known through His church, He will give us more than we can ask or imagine. And so just dreaming big about your role in the mission of God. And for some of you, it's going to be underwriting. Great ministry and great mission. I've got great stories about over the course of history, the revivals of the church, and you have these great leaders that have been a huge part of these revivals and movements of the church. But there are unknown men and women, typically women, very often they're women, that are underwriting, that are paying for financing those movements of God. Some of you, that's going to be you, and you have no idea what that's going to be like, and it's going to be amazing that God would use you and your finances for his ministry and mission. For some of you it's going to be prayer. I've been saying this for years. I'm going to find out in heaven for sure that some probably single woman who has been so faithful to pray for our church for decades was actually the reason why God did all the things that God did in our church. And we're going to get to heaven. She's going to have a gigantic house. Mine's going to be this little tiny house and hers is going to be a huge mansion and, you know, she's going to have this bottle of prayers in one of her many, many garages and barns. And it's going to be the prayers that she had for the Paradox Church. And that's why I did all that stuff. And so just what does that look like for you to sit before the Lord and just dream big about what He might have you do, the role that you might play for the mission of God. Yeah, amen, that's awesome. Yeah, I've gotten to have that conversation with a few of our senior saints, even here, even in the church. They are so overjoyed that they get to be part of the church planting, not because they're going, but because they get to support it through prayers and through their faithful giving. Yeah, totally. All of us have a role to play. Total. Jim, as we're kind of wrapping up, I've really thoroughly enjoyed your book, Send. Could you tell us a little bit more? We've kind of been teasing around these questions around that book, but could you tell us a little bit more about that book or any other projects that maybe are on the horizon for you that we should look out for? Yeah, I love the book for, again, just it's written to the church member. And so it's meant to serve the church pastor, but it's written to the church member. I've told my pastor friends, we all want so much, we want more for our people. We want them to really be captured by the mission of God and to want more for the Christian life. And it's just hard for us to download and disciple, for me, 14 years of experience in ministry to everyone. So to be able to have a book that is meant to be written specifically to the church member and hopefully doing some of that, that's the way it's meant to serve your churches, your ministries. It's written to the church member. And then, two, I'm really excited about what I hope to be a next project about basically just written to men, a very specific ministry towards men. I started an email newsletter. It's called When a Man is Needed. And I've wanted so much to multiply my ministry here locally to our men, to more just super practical, super easy. But really, the younger generation, I'm 45 now, I just turned 45, the 20s and 30 year olds, men, I know them well, I have conversations with them all the time, and they just need very simple, practical help, and they're gonna go find it somewhere. And so I've just been really excited about doing that with them. And so I started that newsletter recently. It's sort of taken off, and I'm excited about what that's doing, and I hope to write a book about that soon. Yeah, if people are looking to find that newsletter or any other resources, is there a place that they can search to find that information? Yeah, they can just email me. The best way to do that right now would be email. But yeah, follow me on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram. I post links there about it all the time. Jim at theparadoxchurch.com . I can get them that information as well. Awesome, awesome. That's great. Well Jim, thanks so much for the conversation today. We're so thankful to get to talk and get to share with our listeners. Everybody, thanks so much for listening. Have an awesome week. You can always follow ReSound Media on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. Subscribe, follow, like. Have a great week everybody. Bye!

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Saved From What? Theology Stephanie Delger Podcast Host Mom Guilt Podcast Published On: April 10, 2024 One of my friends became a Christian on a spring break trip with our high school youth group. He came home from the trip and excitedly told his mother, "I was saved!" Concerned, his mother looked at him and asked, “Saved from what? Did you almost drown?” Have you ever heard someone ask, “Are you saved?” Or heard someone declare, “I have been saved!” I want to ask, like my friend’s mother, “Saved from what?” We are saved from sin’s punishment God is Holy. God is completely pure and set apart, untainted by sin. It’s because of God’s holiness that sin must be punished. God cannot simply look the other way and ignore sin. Sometimes we want this though, especially if we are talking about our own sins that we have committed. But imagine what would happen in the human court system if this occurred. Imagine sitting in a court room watching the trial for a man who has been charged with murder. Picture yourself in the audience, watching witness after witness give their testimony of how this man was guilty of murder. Let’s even say that the man himself has confessed to murder under oath. Imagine at the end of the trial, the judge asks everyone to stand for the reading of the sentencing. The judge lists off all the evidence, but then declares him innocent and tells him he is free to leave. There would be an uproar and a cry for justice. And rightly so! A guilty man didn’t get what he deserved and was instead given freedom. Why would we be upset over this happening in the human court system, and yet are fine if this happens in the divine courtroom? Why are we so passionate for justice for a human life, but not with God’s character or goodness? God is holy and He cannot tolerate sin. In the book of Isaiah, we read about a vision Isaiah had where he sees the Lord. In Isaiah 6, Isaiah immediately recognizes God’s holiness. He says “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord of Hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory.” Upon seeing God’s holiness, his next words are, “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.” If we are being honest, we know two things to be true upon seeing God for who He is. The first is that God is holy and the second, is that we are not. Sin must be punished. Every single sin that has been or will be committed must be punished. This happens in one of two ways. First, the sinner himself will bear his own punishment. He will spend eternity in Hell, suffering God’s wrath. The second way that sins are atoned or paid for is by Jesus Christ on the cross. A christian is not saved by God ignoring his sin, but by God taking the punishment of sin on his behalf. Romans 3:23 says, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” but goes on to say “and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.” Jesus was like a sponge, absorbing all of God’s wrath on our behalf. Jesus is our propitiation, and has atoned for our sins. He, like a sponge, absorbed all of God’s wrath on the cross that was rightly headed our way. This is one aspect of what it means for a person to be saved. We are saved from eternal death Benjamin Franklin once said, “There is nothing certain in this world except death and taxes.” [1] Death is a part of our lives and will continue to be a part of it until Jesus returns. But for a christian, physical death is only the beginning. We see this clearly in a conversion between Jesus and Martha in John 11. Jesus, consoling Martha after Lazarus’ death, says to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.” (John 11:25) As christians, we are one with Christ. Just as Christ died and was risen from the dead, so will all those who place their faith in Him. In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul speaks of what happens for the believer after their physical death. Paul tells the Corinthian church, that just as Jesus was raised from the dead, so will the believer. The body we currently have is perishable, but the one we will get is imperishable. Worshipping Jesus for what He has done, we will all join as one voice, in our resurrection bodies, singing, ““Death is swallowed up in victory.”“O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” (1 Corinthians 15:54-55) A christian is saved from eternal death. Although we may experience physical death, this in many ways is just the beginning. Christ has saved us from eternal death and we will live forever with Him in Heaven. We are saved from sin’s enslavement We are all born into sin. Jesus shows us a dire consequence of what it means to be born into sin. In John 8:34, Jesus says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.” Before a person is saved, they are a slave to sin. Rather than doing things God’s way, they want to do things their way and make their own rules (much like Adam and Eve in the garden). However, Jesus doesn’t leave us without hope. After Jesus declares that those who sin are slaves to sin, he shares what He has come to do. Jesus declares that He has come to redeem us and set us free from our bondage to sin, and “if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.” (John 8:36) This does not mean that once a person is saved, they will no longer sin. In Romans 7, Paul writes about the tension that lives within the believer after they are saved. I affectionally call this the “do-do” passage. Paul humbly tells his fellow Christians that their is a war raging within himself. He is saved and is a new creation, but still has a desire or propensity for sin. “For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. … For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.” (Romans 7:15, 19-20) When we are saved, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell inside us. He helps us in our weakness, giving us both the desire and ability to fight the sin that we were once enslaved to. We now have the desire to follow God. We want to love the things God loves and hate the things God hates. The Bible tells us that this happens because we are one with Christ. Romans 6:6 says, “We know that our old self was crucified with him (Jesus) in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.” Being one with Christ is such a wonderful reality for the Christian. We are one with Jesus in his crucifixion; our old self that was enslaved to sin, died with Christ on the cross. When Christ was raised from the dead, so were our desires. We are now a new creation, one that is no longer a slave to sin. Our hearts full of rebellion have been softened and changed into a heart full of worship. Our final salvation The spiritual warfare that exists inside us will not last forever. We live in a tension many theologians call the “already / not yet.” We are saved. This is our reality. When a believer dies, they will see their Savior face to face. They will spend the rest of eternity in God’s presence, worshiping and praising Him for who He is and what He has done. But there is also a sense in which we are not fully saved. On this earth, in the here and now, we are waging war against our sinful desires. The consequences of sin, both for us and for the entire creation, are still evident. Romans 8 says that, both humans and creation are groaning, awaiting the day when the curse will no longer reign. We long for the freedom and redemption that God has promised. We eagerly long for the day when our adoption as God’s children will be complete. This is our hope. This is the reality for the believer. We are not only saved from sin, but we are saved to God. Revelation speaks of Jesus’ glorious return. It says Jesus will ride on a white horse like the commander of an army, and defeat all his enemies. Sin, death, and suffering will be no more. God will once again come to dwell with His people like He did with Adam and Eve in the garden. We will be saved from sin’s punishment and will be able to worship Him face to face. We will no longer be a slave to sin, rather our desires will be truly conformed to those of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Praise the Lord. Come quickly King Jesus! 1. https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/benjamin-franklins-last-great-quote-and-the-constitution More Blogs You'll Like Do the Resurrection Accounts Contradict? How differences in the Gospel accounts strengthen rather than undermine the credibility of the resurrection Read More What is 'Probably' Missing From Most Nativity Sets Miracle, Myth, or Meteor? Identifying What the ‘Star of Bethlehem’ Truly Was Read More Is The Bible Really Without Error? A Closer Look at Scripture’s Reliability, Inerrancy, and Historical Trustworthiness Read More

Who Needs A Doctor? Sermon Series: It Had To Be Said Nate Archer Main Passage: Luke 5:27-32 Transcript Thank you very much for that warm welcome. It really is a special joy to be back here. I was at Peace Church for 15 years and I've been the lead pastor at First Baptist for the past 10 years. And during that time I've been living in a kind of terror that some Sunday I'm going to get up in front of my congregation at First Baptist and start the morning by saying, good morning Peace Church. It hasn't happened yet, but I still live in that terror. But I can get that out of my system this morning. So good morning, Peace Church. So thank you very much. I bring you warm greetings from your brothers and sisters in Christ down the road at First Baptist. And it really is an honor to be with you here this morning. And I'm thankful to Ryan for the invitation. It really is a special joy to be here. And things are changing. I've noticed that. But you know what doesn't change is our message and the mission that God has for us. And I'm thankful, I'm very thankful that our two churches share that same heartbeat about the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Word of God and wanting people to know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Let's pray together. Father, we come before you and we ask that you would help us to continue to worship you by listening to your word. May you open our hearts to hear what you have said to us through the scriptures, Lord God, words that Jesus has said, and that we would hear this invitation for sinners to come to Jesus Christ. And Lord, I especially pray for anyone that's here that does not yet know Jesus Christ as Savior, that's still on the way, that you would reach into their heart and let them to know that you call them to yourself, Lord God. Lord, speak to us as Christians with our churches and instruct us with your word as far as what you want our churches to be about. So shape us from your word and may everything result in the glory of Jesus Christ, our Savior. In his name we pray, Amen. If you have your Bibles with you, please turn to the Gospel of Luke, Chapter 5. We're going to be looking at verses 27 through 32. When Ryan invited me to speak, he asked me to give a message on something that Jesus said, and I thought, that he came for sinners. So the title of this message is Who Needs a Doctor? And in this passage from Luke 5, we're gonna think through some questions. Why did Jesus come? What was the reason? Who was it that he called? And what if you're reluctant to come to Jesus? And also, if all of this is true, what does this say to our churches? What our churches should be and be like. So let's read together Luke 5, starting with verse 27. It's talking about Jesus. Luke 5:27-32 27 After this he went out and saw a tax collector named Levi, sitting at the tax booth. And he said to him, “Follow me.” 28 And leaving everything, he rose and followed him. 29 And Levi made him a great feast in his house, and there was a large company of tax collectors and others reclining at table with them. 30 And the Pharisees and their scribes grumbled at his disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?” 31 And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.” This is the word of the Lord. And this is what we're gonna be looking at this morning. And the big idea for this message is that Jesus calls sinners because it's the sick that need a doctor. It's not the righteous or the well that Jesus came for, but it's the sick and it's the sick that need the doctor. And spoiler alert, that doctor is Jesus. Think about it this way. Imagine that there's a bad traffic accident on the road and the car is mangled, it's in bad shape, and you go out there and there's somebody that they've survived the accident, but they're in bad shape. And there's blood and there's gore and there's bones in places they shouldn't be, and the person is not doing well, you call 911, the ambulance comes to take them to the hospital, and the person refuses. And says, I can't go to the hospital like this. The doctor is there, and I can't let the doctor see me like this. My hair is a mess. I've got blood on my clothes. I've got injuries. I won't let the doctor see me like this. Let me clean myself up first. Maybe let me spend some time healing and then I'll be ready to go and see the doctor. That wouldn't make any sense. That would not make sense. And it also doesn't make sense to think that you have to clean yourself up first before you go to Jesus. Jesus in this passage is saying that it's the sick that need a doctor, not the healthy. And so let's just start with a point that we can't miss in this passage. The first point that if you are a sinner, go to Jesus. If you are a sinner, you need to go to Jesus. He's the one that calls you, He invites you, He implores you to come to Him. Don't stay away. We don't want to be like Adam and Eve that when they realized that they were guilty, they ran and they hid from God. But so often that's what people do. Because of our guilt, we don't want to be around God. We feel guilty in His presence. But the truth is, He's the only one that can actually deal with our guilt and take it away. And He wants sinners to come to Him. In this passage, notice specifically who it was that Jesus is addressing in this passage. These words are spoken to Levi, who is in the Bible also known as Matthew, and he's a tax collector. And because of that he was despised. I mean he was despised by everyone because he was a tax collector. He was a traitor to his people, and even though he was a Hebrew, he was working for Rome doing this. And let me ask, how many of you, even now, love paying taxes? Let's see those hands. Just, yeah, I love it, it's the best. No, you don't? Okay, not many hands here. But if you hate paying taxes now, you would have hated them even more back in that day. Because the Romans had a system that was called tax farming. And basically how it worked is they would sell the rights to be the tax collector for a certain district. And Rome would say, this is how much money, they would give you a certain amount that you needed to collect for that district, but if you bought the rights to be the tax collector, you would get this money out of people and give Rome what they said that was owed to them, but anything over the top, you got to keep. And so it was a pretty lucrative thing that you would buy this, but then make quite a bit of money getting, extracting taxes from people. And back in that day, there's less financial records, communication, so if you feel like you have been taken advantage of, good luck trying to prove that. And of course if you didn't have enough money to pay what the tax collector said you owed, well, out of the goodness of his heart, he'd be willing to lend you that money at a huge interest rate. And so these tax collectors, they are making bank. They are getting very wealthy off the backs of the people that they're exploiting. And so tax collectors, they were considered robbers by the Jewish Talmud. And they were considered traitors, the scum of society, rich vermin, lackeys for Rome. And in fact, they couldn't even serve as witnesses in the Jewish court because they were considered such sinners and excommunicated from the synagogues. Yet this is who Jesus called in this passage. That Jesus called Levi, Matthew, the tax collector and said to him, follow me. This was shocking. Shocking. What would this be like today? Who would it be that would shock us that Jesus would call those people. I'll let you fill that in in your mind. But it says in verse 28, in leaving everything, he rose and followed him. And we read the passage again, then Levi threw a great feast in his house for Jesus. And so he throws his feast, he invites his friends, and then who's gonna be the friends of a tax collector? Probably other tax collectors, because he's not a super popular guy with everyone else. So other tax collectors, other sinners, they're the ones that would come. So that's who is at this feast that he has with Jesus. And this offended the Pharisees. Remember the Pharisees, they were really good at being good. They were really good at keeping the rules so good that they would have to make up more rules so they could keep those rules too. And they were offended at this, that somebody, supposedly a good rabbi, would be someone that would call a sinner, like Levi, a tax collector, and then hang around him and his sinner friends like this. And it's in that response where Jesus says in verse 31, those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance." So again, if you are a sinner, go to Jesus. He is calling you. He doesn't want you to stay away. He came for sinners like you and like me and like all of us. Because the truth is, Jesus didn't come for the righteous or the squeaky clean. He came for sinners and that's what we are. We are all sinners. That's what the Bible teaches us. We're all sinners worse than sick. Jesus talks about sin as sickness here, but other places, Ephesians 2 talks about that we were dead in our trespasses and sin. That's even worse. And Romans 3, 23 tells us that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. If you're just measuring your goodness against the person next to you, maybe you seem pretty good. But you measure it against God and his law and his standards, we all fall so short. And sin isn't just making little mistakes. At its core, it's rebellion against God, a holy God in our heart. And ultimately, that is what sin is. So do you realize that you need a doctor? Jesus isn't for just those other people out there. I read a story of a man named Ken at the age of 38 who was bitten by a cobra. He had a friend who had a cobra in his tank. He reached up to pick up the snake and the cobra bit him. And his friend said, you need to go to the hospital because you've been bitten by this cobra and this is a venomous snake. And he said, I'm a man, I can handle it. In fact, instead of going to the hospital, he went to the bar and brag into people like, I was just bit by a cobra, not realizing that it's a slow acting venom. And he was able to even get a few drinks in before he succumbed to it and dropped dead. We are all mortally infected with sin. Don't just assume that you're fine. We are not, we are sinners all. On the other hand, if you do know very well that you're a sinner, and some people, they know it, but they want to stay away from that doctor. Again, if you know that you need the doctor, don't wait to get well first. That makes no sense. Here's another implication, I think, from this passage that we need to think about as churches. Church, here's something to realize. If we are churches that are about the calling that Jesus has, and he is calling sick people to himself, then expect to see sick people around the doctor. If Jesus is the doctor and he came for sick, he came for sinners, we should not be shocked when there are sinners that are coming to be around the doctor. We don't want to be like the Pharisees that were upset about this. We need to realize that's who they need. It would be like otherwise going to a hospital and being offended that there are sick people there. Would that make sense if I said, I was going to go up to the hospital and I enjoy spending my time there, but I got up to the hospital and I just wanted to relax and have a good time, but there were all these sick people around. It really wrecked the experience for me, being around all these sick people at the hospital. And what if we thought, well, you know, a hospital, they say it's supposed to be about making you well, but I went to a hospital and it's full of sick people, and what a bunch of hypocrites. Isn't the church something like a hospital for sinners? And if it is, don't be shocked. We don't want to say, we can't have sick people around here. This is a hospital. They don't look healthy. They might mess up the place. They might give our hospital a bad name. Church, if we're doing what Jesus calls us to do, and if our heartbeat is the same as his heartbeat, then don't expect to be surrounded just by perfect people. We need to expect to be surrounded by the people that Jesus called. Second point from this passage, we need to be really clear that Jesus alone is the true physician that saves. Jesus alone, he is the only one, he is the one that we need to point people to. Jesus noticed he was really, really specific about who he was telling Levi to follow. He didn't say, go follow someone, you know, pick the best one that you think. There's lots of options. He said, follow me. And when we read this passage, it's really clear that Jesus recognized that he himself is the physician that he was talking about and saying, sinners need the physician, the sick people need the physician. Sinners need a doctor and Jesus is the doctor. So we need to be really clear and always remind ourselves that Jesus is the doctor, not you and me. But this can be easy for us to forget because, you know, we're pretty great and sometimes things go to our head. I rescued a turtle once. Actually, I've rescued a turtle a lot, because that's the kind of person I am. You know, there's two different types of people in the world. There's people, good-natured, good people, that when they see a turtle trying to cross the road, they stop and they help that turtle. There's that kind of people, and then there's the other kind of people. But I'm one of the good kind that helps a turtle when I see it. And so this one time it was right near our house and I'm driving and I see this turtle in the road so I this was my code. Anybody else have that code? You stop and you help turtles? Okay. And so I stopped and I helped this turtle and I picked it up and recognized, oh this turtle its shell is kind of cracked already. And so I thought it was a good thing that a good person like me, a good natured friend of nature, came to help this turtle. So I took the turtle and I put it on the side of the road Or you know to where it was going in the direction. It was heading. That's what you're supposed to do and I thought to myself And I am a I'm a good person. I was I went back in my car with my heart warmed about my goodness thinking about how I am such a friend of nature and I rescued this turtle and I started driving and Immediately I ran over a chipmunk. Seriously, it was less than 10 seconds. I started driving again, and this little guy darts in front of my car and darts the other way, and then I feel, oh no. And I look back, and all I could do was look back and confirm, yep, he's a goner. And then I got really reflective about this. I was deflated, because I was just thinking what a friend of nature I am and then I kill this other animal. So then I'm driving like, ah, what's the point of this? Is there something I'm supposed to learn from this experience? And I thought, you know, not everything needs to be a sermon illustration. Not everything has to have a deep point. Maybe the point is just animals need to be more careful on the road. But then as I was driving, it just kind of hit me. I am an incompetent savior. I am not a competent savior. I rescue a turtle and then I immediately kill a chipmunk. I am not the hero of this story. I'm an incompetent Savior. And if the world depended on me being the Savior, it is out of luck. If the world depended on me being the hero of the story, it is out of luck. If my self-image depended on me being the Savior and the hero of the story, I am out of luck. Because I am an incompetent Savior, and you also, don't want to break it to you, but are an incompetent Savior. But we know someone that is a competent Savior. We know who there is that actually does save. We are not qualified, but Jesus Christ is. Jesus saves, not great Christians, not great pastors, not great churches. Our job, Christians, churches, is to direct people to Him, to Jesus, the one who came and actually does save, because Jesus is the God-man who saves sinners by dying in their place. That is who He is, and that's why He is qualified, and we are not. I'm a sinner. I have done, I do terrible things. There's still sin in my heart, even with Jesus transforming me and changing me. And so I am not qualified to be a Savior. It would be like somebody that's drowning trying to save somebody else. You're not going to be a good lifeguard if you're already drowning. You need somebody that's not drowning. And Jesus is the one who is innocent, that lived a perfect life. He never sinned in his entire life. And not only that, he completely fulfilled God's law in every detail and everything that was required of him. But not only that, he was the God-man, the only one who has been fully God and also fully human together in one person. This amazing thing. And he needed to be the God-man, 100% God, 100% human, in order to save human beings. He had to be human in order to pay the price on the cross for human beings, but he also needed to be God so that the value of that sacrifice was worthy enough to pay for it. An unlimited amount of people. Anyone at all that will turn to him as Savior is going to find that the price has already been paid and will find that they have a all-sufficient Savior accepting them because the price has been paid on the cross already by Him. Romans 5a says, but God showed his love for us that while we were still sinners, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. And only the God-man is the one who could do this. One last point from this passage. That Jesus calls sinners to repentance. Look again at verse 32. And we need to notice the last two words here that Luke includes. He says, I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners. And then Luke gives us two more words that he records that Jesus said that actually aren't recorded in Matthew 9 13 or Mark 2 17. Luke gives two more words that Jesus said, calling sinners to repentance. We can't ignore these words but we have to be careful to think what does this mean when we say Jesus calls sinners to repentance. Should we think here it is Jesus is saying he's calling sinners to repentance because he's coming to say, those are the people they need to clean up their act. That's not what this means. Also, does calling them to repentance mean you need to beat yourself up for your sins? When I was young, I grew up in a faith tradition that that's how they viewed repentance, as doing penance. Basically beat yourself up for your own sins. And that's not the way to think about it either. That's not what it means. Also, we might think, well, what about being saved by faith alone? Isn't it that you're saved by, you receive the free gift of salvation by faith alone in Jesus Christ. So what is repentance? Is it faith and repentance? They're two different things and you need both of these. Well, I wanna, can I give an object lesson that, hopefully will help make sense of this a little bit for you? But for this, I need a kid who's willing to come on stage for this. So is there a kid? What do you guys, you want to come on stage? There's money involved. I'm here to give you money. So if that, you know, changes things here, motivates you a little bit. All right. Hey, thanks for coming up. What's your name? Asher. Asher? All right. Awesome name. Nine. Nine. That's exactly how old I was when I was that age. Cool. Okay, this is a quarter. You've seen a quarter before. This is the head side, where there's a head on it. This is tails. I'm going to give you this quarter, but here's what you have to do. You just have to pick it up. Okay? I'm going to put it on the ground. And all you have to do is pick it up. But, but, okay. But, I want you to pick up just the head side, and you can lift up the head side, but leave that tail side on the ground on the carpet. Okay, go. Remember, just pick up the head. The tail side has to stay down on the, why aren't you, you having trouble? Oh, now you picked up. That's impossible, isn't it? Yeah, I called you up here to do something impossible. So, thanks for being a good sport. Yeah, you can't pick up just half of it. You have the whole thing. Here, you can take this. Thanks for being a good sport. I know it's only 25 cents, but be sure to tie that. Okay, it's two and a half cents. I think this is the way to think about faith and repentance. Faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin. And so we're saved, we receive Christ and his work by one thing, which is faith and repentance. But like a quarter, it has two sides to it. It's just one thing. It's not two different things. But sometimes you see the faith side and some of the repentance. And sometimes in Scripture, it'll refer to faith. Sometimes it'll refer to faith and repentance, sometimes just repentance. But in the same way, if you were walking and you saw a quarter on the ground and it was heads up, you would know that the tail side is there too. If you saw it and you saw the tail side was up, you would know the head side is there too, because it's two sides of the same thing. So when you read scripture and it talks about faith, remember it always means a repentant faith. When it talks about repentance, it doesn't mean beating yourself up for your sin, but it means turning to Jesus Christ in faith as the one that paid the price for your sin. That's what it is. And so in a sense, faith and repentance, they go together because one is referring to what we're turning away from. And it doesn't mean that you've completely cleaned up your life. That's not gonna happen in this life. It'd be great if it could, but it's gonna be a lifelong battle against sin. But it means you're turning your back against your rebellion against God. You're recognizing rebellion against God, that's terrible, I don't wanna do that. You turn your back to it and you're turning to Jesus Christ as your Lord, as the one who is the God-man that came to save you and trusting in him alone. So the faith that saves us is a repentant faith that we have. And this means that there's going to be change that God works in our hearts, in our lives. Because in this, God is giving us the new birth, he's giving us regeneration, he's not saving us because of anything good that we have done, but as we trust him and are given a new born-again heart, that heart is going to have changes in it that the Holy Spirit works in our lives. So repentance, this faith, salvation results in new life in Christ. Notice that Levi didn't keep robbing people. He didn't stay at the tax booth. He left his tax booth. Verse 28 says, and leaving everything, he rose and followed him. When it says leaving everything, we don't think it just means, well, he left the booth for a while. But he decided, I'll add Jesus to my life, but I'm going to keep on this gig of extorting people and being a tax collector. No, he turned his back on that to trust Jesus Christ instead. It's been said many times and I think this is true that God loves you just as you are and he loves you too much to leave you the way that you are. So we're saved the sinners just the way that we are but when we're saved in a new heart, regeneration, being changed from the inside out. And God takes our heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh. I was listening to Pastor John's message from a few weeks ago, and I was just delighted that he talked about that at the end. I realized I'm going to hit on that in my message too. And that's what is involved in the new birth. God gives us a new heart. There's some implications for us with this. It means you don't just go to the hospital just to hang out. You don't do that. You don't go there just because, well, I really like the food. They have a nice bed. I like the people there. I just like hanging out with the people at the hospital. I like being waited on, hand and foot. They got this little buzzer, you press it and people come and they give you what you want, and it's just great. But that's not the right reason to be going to the hospital. Do some people treat church that way? Do we go to church because we love the amenities? And what if you're not really going there in order to get better? What if you're not going there to see the doctor? What if you don't want to listen to the doctor? Or what if someone's going there just to cause trouble? Because on one hand, as churches, we want to be open to sinners, and we invite them, and they need the doctor. But if somebody was going to a hospital and just going room to room, pulling out people's IVs, and they're there just to cause trouble, then it's different. Then the staff, they have to deal with that. Let me finish with this. This is the implication for our churches. If Jesus is the true physician, then I think it really is true that we can think of the church as a hospital for sinners. It's more than that, but that's something, a way that we can think about it. But what kind of hospital? Is it just a health spa, healthy people go to the hospital to be made More appealing on the outside. Nope. That's not the kind of hospital it is The church is a hospital for sinners that specializes in heart transplants That's kind of hospital we are it's for sinners And we specialize in heart transplants, helping people through the gospel, through the Word of God and the Holy Spirit working through that, and because of the work of Christ, they have a born-again heart, to have new life in Christ. So instead of having their destiny in hell, they can have their destiny of enjoying and worshiping and glorifying God forever in Jesus Christ. That's what we're for. And just as in a church, there's going to be different parts of that. There's going to be diagnosis. You got to diagnose the problem. You have to do the treatment, the actual surgery, and there's a phase of recovery. These are all things as the church we're called to do. I mean, how many of you like having surgery just for fun? You just love just having surgery just for the fun. No, we don't. So people need to understand, be communicated to, why they need this surgery. And so if you're going to the hospital, one of their jobs is to let people know you are in desperate need of this. You are going to die without this procedure. And so as a church, we need to be letting people know the bad news. And that's not unloving. People need to know that sin is sin, and that sin is terrible, and it cuts us off from God and leads to condemnation. And so be thankful that you have pastors here that are willing to call sin for what it is, that are willing to warn sinners that they are sinners, not to rub their face in their sin, but to help them to realize that there is a problem and they need to go to the doctor, and that there is one that is there and calls them to solve this problem. And we use the Word of God and the law of God to convince ourselves to help us realize that we need these heroic measures. And we're about the job of a heart transplant, a salvation, because we are flatlining in sin without Jesus. But God takes our heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh, like it says in Ezekiel, being born again, regenerated. But then that's not it. There's rehabilitation. Because after heart surgery, you don't just leave right away. It's a process of regaining your strength, getting stronger. And so even as Christians, we don't say, well, I'm saved and I don't need church anymore, because we're in this process of continuing to grow as Christians, to grow in strength, to recover. And rehabilitation comes after the surgery, not before it. This also means that it should give us humility, that we are all here as recovering patients from a heart surgery. We are all sinners saved by grace and this should help us have patience with the other patients that are here. Let me add one more thing. There's some hospitals that are teaching hospitals where they're training other people to be about the work of the hospital and that's also what our churches need to be about. That we're not of the mindset I'm going to go get what I need and then I'm off. But we're there to be trained to be about this work. Jesus is the physician, but we're part of his staff. We're part of this work in helping with diagnosis and leading people to Christ and helping people to grow in Christ and other people being trained to serve as well. Have you had your heart transplant yet? The doctor stands ready. He's calling you. And if you're a sinner, church is the right place to be because the doctor is here. And also the doctor's people are here in order to help you. As brothers and sisters in Christ, let's be about this work together. Let's pray.

Live Like It's True On the Live Like It's True Bible podcast, Shannon Popkin and her guests talk through some of the most interesting and astonishing stories of the Bible—and how to live like each one is true. Each biblical narrative gives you new ways to refute the false narratives of the world, and rehearse what is true. Come be inspired to know the Story, share the Story, and live like it's true! Listen to the podcast 1 2 3 4 5 1 ... 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 ... 100

Proclaim for the Hope of the Generations (Forward) Sermon Series: Proclaim Ryan DB Kimmel Lead Pastor Peace Church Main Passage: Colossians 1:24-29 Transcript Today is the day that the Lord has made. So let us rejoice and be glad in it. And everyone said, Amen. Amen. Well, biologically speaking, you have two parents, you have four grandparents, and you have eight great-grandparents. But of those eight last names, typically you're only given one of them at your birth, but I dare say that all of them contribute to you in some form or fashion. They all worked to make you who you are. And so I wonder, when you consider three generations out, four generations out from you right now, what about your life, your traditions, your values, do you wanna see continue on after you're gone. The question is, What is your hope for your future generations? What is your hope for the future generations of your church? And even more than that, what are you going to do about it? I'm going to give you an incredibly obvious statement right now. You only have the time you have to make the difference you want to make. I'll say it again. You only have the time you have to make the difference you want to make. If you want to see something continue on, if you want to see change made, guess what? The time is now. You only have the time you have to make the difference you want to make and Church the time is now. As Gandalf said all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. Today at these church we conclude a spiritual journey The campaign continues on for two years. For two years we will continue to give to this initiative and for two years God will continue to grow our church. And as more people come and make Peace Church their home, they will continue to give to this campaign. But the spiritual journey of it ends today as we consider how God is calling us to give. We're going to hear God's word preached to us by the power and presence of the Holy Spirit. And then we're going to lay our gifts before the altar as we together, holding hands, commit to see God's plan unfold for our church. So let's finish what we started five weeks ago. Please turn to Colossians chapter one. We're going to conclude chapter one today. As you're turning there, just a reminder, if you are new, here's kind of the context. Saint Paul, the apostle, wrote this letter. It was written to a church. He's writing from prison and he's going to finish chapter one with six powerful verses that remind us of not just God's plan But how we are called to be part of it because if you are a follower of Jesus Then despite whatever you have going on in your life. You are called to be a part of God's plan and so with that Would you hear God's Word? Colossians chapter 1 we will read verses 24-29. Paul writes this, would you hear God's word? Colossians 1:24-29 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, 26 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. 27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. 29 For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me. This is God's Word. Let's pray and we'll continue. Let's pray. Fathers, we come before you on this day, the final day of our spiritual journey. Lord, we ask that you would send your Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit. Would you illuminate your word for us today? Call us into deeper levels of faith, deeper knowledge of your word. God help us to experience more of your love through the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, in whose name we both proclaim and pray. And everyone said, amen and amen. Well, church, as we look back on this proclaim journey that we've been on, each message in this series has been specifically designed to remind us of why we proclaim the gospel Colossians chapter 1 gave us a beautiful roadmap for this if you remember week one We talked about how we proclaim the goodness of God that we can't lose this simple truth that God is good. The second week we talked about how we proclaim for the health of the church that we want to see God's church built up, not just physically with sticks and bricks, but spiritually as God's people grow both numerically bigger, but also spiritually stronger so we can be more effective for our mission in this world. Then the third week we looked at the, we proclaim for the power of our testimony, how there is power when God's people declare who God is and what he's done and how we can see that in our life. And then last week, we lifted up the name of Jesus as we talked about proclaiming for the King of creation that Jesus truly is the only hope for the world. And today, we're gonna conclude with this message that we proclaim for the hope of the generations. So hopefully you have your devotions with you. Hopefully those are fairly filled out. We're gonna look at our last message for today. Again, there's the title. We proclaim for the hope of the generations. And as we look at our passage today, here is our main idea. Here's the main point I want to drive home for you today. We give now so that generations yet to come will know the gospel. We give now so that the generations yet to come will know the gospel. And as we walk through our passage, let's wrap up this sermon series with a nice three-point sermon outline. Here it is for you in the head. 1. We sacrifice so that the church can be built. 2. We testify so that the world will hear the truth. 3. We proclaim because we have the prerogative and we have the power to do so. 1. We sacrifice so that the church can be built. So church, if you're ready to step into God's Word, let me hear you say amen. Amen. So here we go, first thing. We sacrifice so that the church can be built. Look at our passage, it starts out verse 24. Look at verse 24 and 25. Paul writes and he says, now I rejoice in my suffering, said no American ever. Now I rejoice in my suffering for your sake and in my flesh I'm filling up what is lacking in Christ's affliction for the sake of his body, that is the church of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given from me to you. Moral of the story, Paul, Saint Paul, the apostle, not only sacrifices, not only suffers for the sake of the church, but he rejoices in it. Why? Well, because Paul understood something that I think many of us need to understand, that seeing the church built is what ministry is all about. Not just with sticks and bricks, although that's important as we're going to look at, but we minister and we share the gospel so that the church can be built. The church is the people of God. We want to see more people come to know Jesus so that the church can be built and expand. Seeing the church be built is better than staying comfortable. Paul was willing to sacrifice his comfort, his money, his well-being so that the church can continue on. It was that important to him. It should be that important to us. But we need to do a Bible study here on an important phrase that Paul uses. I I don't know if you caught this, but Paul says this, he says, In my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's affliction. Whoa! What's lacking in Christ's affliction? Don't get ahead of this. Here's the reality. This is a simple misreading of the text. If you think that Paul is in any way saying that the suffering of Jesus was deficient, insufficient, or incomplete. Paul did not teach that. Paul did not believe that. That's not what he's saying here. Hear me clearly. What Jesus Christ did on the cross in your place and in my place, dying for our sins, suffering in our place, that was sufficient, hear me, not just for your sins, but all your future sins, and it was sufficient for all the sins of anyone who would place their faith in him. What Christ did was complete. The sacrifice of Jesus is truly all that we need. And so what's Paul talking about? We're talking about this lacking. Here's the reality. The only thing lacking is the actual presentation of Christ's suffering to the world so that they can know the gospel. The only thing lacking is people's knowledge of it. As John Piper puts it, what's missing in Christ's affliction is the presentation of those afflictions to the people for whom he died. And this is what Paul is doing. This is why he points to his own sufferings. He's saying, by my sufferings I can take that and point you to the even greater complete suffering that Jesus did on our behalf. As with all things, hopefully you've listened to me preach enough. You know me when I say something like this, like when you're confused on a passage, I think the number one thing you should do is keep reading. Like keep reading. The Bible has a beautiful way of sometimes explaining itself. So let's continue reading. Let's go on. I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's affliction for the sake of his body, that is the church. We know that the church is the body of Christ. But this is why we need to finish the passage. Look at verse 25. Of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you." Paul is saying, I became a minister so that I could present to you what Christ has done for you. And that's a challenge for all of us who call on the name of Jesus. How are you presenting what Christ has done for you to others so that they could know what he's done for them? Church, we do this when we sacrifice so that the church can be built, both physically and spiritually. Because I'm going to tell you this, a stronger church is one that shares the gospel. And that's what we want to do. 2. We testify so that the world will hear the truth. In fact, when you talk about our values as a church, our three-strand DNA, the first one is that we are gospel-centered. At the end of the day, that's really the only message that we have to share is, Jesus died for you. And on the third day, he rose again, and all the church said amen So church if you believe this then give Give like you believe in the message we are proclaiming because here's the challenge if you don't give Then it's just logical and reasonable to believe that well It's because you don't believe in the message that we're proclaiming here And you don't see the need to support it So this is why we give. We give because we believe in the message that we are proclaiming as a church. And in this campaign, proclaim is not just about building a building. I'm going to tell you right now, if there's been one thing I've learned about leading us through a capital campaign is that there are some people who just cannot see past that. All they hear is, you just want a bigger building. No, no. And if you think that about a church, I would leave that church. This is not just about building a bigger building. This is about being able to house all the people that God has been bringing to this church. Last week, our deacons told us they saw five vehicles pull in, not find a parking spot, and then leave. That is intolerable. And so hear me when I'm, I pass you to my heart. This is not just about building a building This is about creating space so people can come and hear the gospel and worship Jesus And if you can't get on board with that then I'm gonna tell you there's two great churches Right to our left right to the south west right to the north of us And if you think we're off the mark, I'm telling you minimal first Baptist with pastor Nate Archer amazing church Head down there and listen to the gospel or pastor Scott up at Caledonia CRC, amazing church, but we got a mission before us, and we are called to take part in it, all of us who call Peace Church home. It's our time to sacrifice. As we've been going through this campaign, I've looked back on so many black and white pictures and I've been so inspired about what the generation before did for us, that we get to experience here now. Yes, I know they did it for God, but I guarantee they had us in mind when they did it. And it's our turn now to do that. If you are listening to it, if you think you're hearing a sales pitch, you don't know my heart. Okay, I got way off my script here, let's get back. Amen. I wanna show you something that I believe is a very positive thing about our church. I want to show you two pie charts of our membership growth over the last few years. The pie chart on your left there, 2022 to 2023, that is our membership growth, not just our attendance growth, that's our membership growth for the last couple years. And as you see there, we grew via membership by 14% through conversion and 86% through transfer. But this past year we saw the start of a, I think, a positive change. That last year our membership growth was 28% by conversion and 72% by transfer. Our transfer growth went down and our conversion conversion growth obviously went up. Conversion meaning profession of faith and adult baptisms. I believe, yeah, amen, praise God. I believe this is a positive indication of our church's membership growth. But let me just speak to you who have transferred here. I transferred here. Please don't hear me saying that's a bad thing. I just like to see when people come to Jesus. And so let me say this to those of you who have transferred here like myself and my family. I am so thankful that God led you to become part of this church family. You are helping us to be the church that God's calling us to be. But whether transferred or converted, if you are a Christian who is called here, then it's not to stay comfortable. It's to get on mission. It's not to sit on the sidelines. If God truly called you here, it's because he's given you gifts to use for his kingdom, gifts that we need to fulfill the mission that God's called us to. I believe it's because he wants your family to get stronger and to grow stronger. It's because he wants you to be part of the Peace Church family. And around here, I will tell you, in this family, everybody got something to do. I don't know about how you grew up, but when I grew up, no one was allowed to just sit on their duff. Like, we all have a job to do. We all have something to do. And right now, the thing that we all have to do, I believe, is to joyfully give and sacrifice to make room, just like the previous generation did for you. We gotta do that for our community. Just like the previous generation did for us, it's our time now to do it for others. If you are new or newer to Peace Church, let me just tell you, I believe God brought you to this church during an awesome, an awesome time. Whether you've been here for five minutes or 50 years, Peace Church is a family, and in this family we sacrifice so that the world will hear the truth. Verse 25 continues, to make the word of God fully known, the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. Again don't get tripped up on that. Saints just means anyone who follows Christ. Verse 27, to them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles. Again don't get tripped on that word either. Gentiles just means the world at large. It means the nations. To make known the rest of the world, how great are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Now, I love this passage. It's beautiful, it's complex, and there's a lot of words here that seem like they are held in tension. Fully known, yet mystery, yet revealed, both now, but also the ages to come. The glory of this mystery is also the hope of glory. I think some Christians may get confused and even slightly put off that the Bible speaks about mystery concerning faith. I personally think it's a beautiful thing. There is mystery to our faith. There's deep things about God that humans just cannot know. There's a mystery there. But what Paul is talking about is the notion that for how amazing the Old Testament is, the mystery therein is brought to light in the New Testament It's one story continuously unfolding. And so what is this mystery that's been revealed? What's the Word of God? Brought to light in the gospel or as Paul puts it so beautifully succinctly Christ in you the hope of glory. This is enormous, beautiful, complex, and profound. It's also an oddly accessible truth that for those who place their faith in Jesus, we no longer have to pay for our sins. Rather, we get the fruit of Christ's labor, which is eternal life. And the reason we have the eternal life is because we get the literal life of Jesus in us. We can live forever because Jesus, who will live forever, is living within us. That's Christ in us, the hope of glory. Our destiny is not one of death and destruction and judgment, but it's of life and happiness and joy and glory, if not now, surely in the time to come. And it's the truth, the gospel. This is what we do. This is what we do at Peace Church. We strive and we give and we sacrifice so that the gospel can go forth to our neighbors, to our community, to the world, and to future generations. That there is hope. For however dark the world gets, there is hope. And it's found in the man Jesus Christ. To this we testify, to this we proclaim that Jesus Christ died for our sins and on the third day, rose again from the dead. 3. We proclaim because we have the prerogative and we have the power to do so. And thirdly, we proclaim, because we have the prerogative and the power to do so. Verse 28, I love these three words, how this verse starts out. "Him, we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ, for this I toil, struggling with all his energy, that he powerfully works within me." I'll tell you what, Peace Church, if there is anything, if there's anything that we do, it can be boiled down to these three beautiful, simple words. Him we proclaim. That is what we do at the end of the day. We may provide counseling, we may provide financial support for those who are in need, but at the end of the day, this is what we do. Him we proclaim. At the end of the day, all I got for you is Jesus. At the end of the day, I don't got wisdom, I don't got advice, I don't even have prophecy. I just have Jesus for you. Jesus is all I can tell you. Place your faith and hope in Him. His name is all we got. By His name we warn people. By His name we teach people. By His name is wisdom. His name is how we grow. His name is worth the fights. It's worth the struggle. Why? Because we have His power to do so. Our chapter concludes by saying this, for this I toil, struggling. The word there for struggling is actually, it's connected to our word for agony or to agonize. Some Bible translations translate this word as to strive or even to contend. And Paul talks about this struggle or this fight, but he doesn't talk about it from a place of weakness. He talks about it from a place of power. Rather, he says this, he says, with all the energy that he powerfully works within me church what God calls you to do. He will give you the strength to do If you feel like you're weak, then it's because you're relying on your own strengths.Rely on the power of God what God calls us to he will see us through and in this world Our world is rejecting truth, but we are the ones who are going to proclaim it and not just proclaim it but proclaim it with power. We proclaim because we have the prerogative and the power to do so. And this is from the power and presence of Christ in you, working through us by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And so it's our time now, throughout human history, this is the time that we have to proclaim the truth. And church, this is why we are in the Proclaim campaign, so that both the generation now that's around us and the generations yet to come will come to know the gospel truth. And I'll say this, men, men in the house, it starts with you in the home. So let me share with you one story of a family from our church that's doing this. And in this family at peace, three generations are represented and they are trying to center their life and legacy on Jesus. So would you please watch the story of the Ross family. "Great is the Lord and greatly to be praised. One generation shall commend your works to another and shall declare your mighty acts and shall sing aloud of your righteousness to make known to the children of man your mighty deeds and the glorious splendor of your kingdom. We are Tony and Laura Ross and we've been attending Peace Church for 20 years now. I wasn't raised in a Christian home and when I met Tony I had already had a son. We were definitely living a worldly life and making choices that were not pleasing to the Lord. Early in our marriage we knew that we were longing for something but we weren't quite sure what it was and so we found a church service on TV and we were watching that and we were starting to learn about Jesus and we decided that we needed to be centered around a community. So we found Peace Church and we were learning from the sermons and the scriptures and we were falling in love with Jesus. And then unfortunately our worst nightmare happened and our son didn't wake up. And he passed away suddenly in his sleep.And that drove us to our knees in anger. We were bitter. We didn't understand why, after all of these years of not knowing Christ and us getting so close to Him at that point in time, why something like this would happen to us. I know that we can experience the Lord on the mountaintops, but I also have learned that we know him in the valleys and we came to know him in our deepest valley. Thankfully, Dustin's grandma, she was able to take Dustin to church when he was a child and he did give us life to Christ. And again, that is one thing that I regret as a mother, is not being able to teach those morals and values to him. Scripture tells us that we are to train and teach our children to love the Lord with all their heart, mind, and soul. And I didn't want to lose another opportunity to do that. So as we started going to church, we heard about this awesome ministry for kids. And Laura started taking the girls to Carraway Street. It was a great program where they learn scripture through song and through puppets and through acting. We found that we were all immature in our faith, we were kind of learning the same thing at the same time and would come home and talk about things together. My mom would wake up every morning and do her devotions, read her Bible, spend time in the Word, and then we saw my dad every night after dinner spending time in his Bible and connecting with the Lord and I feel like that really gave Hallie and I a concrete example of what it looked like to be a Christian. Because we knew how we had grown up away from the Lord and saw the devastation in our lives that it caused, we wanted to make sure not only to pass that along to our girls, but also to work with teens. I feel like that's something that I so admired about you guys, is that you didn't wait until you were super spiritually mature, or you had all this biblical knowledge. We were learning all together at the same time. That has been such a motivator for me to pass on my faith to not only my children, but also the teenagers here at Peace in the Middle School Ministry. Because God is so good and because we know that full well as a family, we now are able to proclaim that to not only each other, but also to the next generation. And that comes through serving and being involved at the church, but also just spreading the love of Jesus to everyone that we come in contact with." Church, here at Peace, we often talk about how families must have at least a three-generation vision, that while we can with the time we have, we want to ensure that three generations out from our families will come to know the gospel and live for Jesus, living out our family values. We want that for our families, but we also want that for our church, a generational vision. And this campaign and this sermon series is about that. And so let me give you one last spiritual and financial challenge. You know we've had one of these each week. Here would be your spiritual and financial challenge as you consider these final moments before you lay your gift at the altar. Are we sacrificial with our finances in ways that we may not be able to experience but our children and future generations will get to enjoy? Let me say it again. Are we sacrificial with our finances in ways we may not experience but our children and future generations will get to enjoy? My sincere hope and prayer is that future generations of the Kimmel family continue to call Peace Church their home. I happen to love this community. I think this is a pretty awesome church. And so when my wife and I considered our gift, we also considered, we want to give for a church and a church building that our grandchildren will be able to enjoy. Now, my oldest is only 16, so I'm not saying I want grandchildren anytime soon, but I am saying we're having that vision in our minds, that we know that what we're giving now, hopefully our grandkids and their children will get to enjoy. What we give now to God through proclaiming, yes, yes, we will get to experience, hopefully in somewhere not too much longer than a year, we'll have a new building to be able to worship and welcome new people. But we're also giving to this campaign to ensure that we do our parts with the time we have so that future generations will have what they need so that they can continue to spread and share the gospel. And so, we give now so the generations yet to come will come to know the gospel. We do this just like the previous generations have done for us, and now it's our time to follow God's call. Amen. So let me give you a detail of what's gonna happen right now. We are gonna go to prayer, but what we want you to do now is to, in these final moments, again, this is for the Peace Church family. If you're new or you're just visiting, we're by no means asking you to partake unless the Lord is gonna call you to do that. But this is for the Peace Church family right now. You have the commitment card that was on your seat when you walked in or maybe you brought yours with you. What we want to do in these next moments is I want to give you a moment to fill it out if you haven't yet. Then we're going to go to prayer and then we'll have a time of offering. You've got some black table stations around the church, around the worship center here. While we go to prayer, some boxes will be set up. When we come out of prayer, when you're ready, you and your family can go and drop your gift off as the Lord leads you. But here's what I want to do. I'm going to give you like 30 seconds right now to fill out the card if you haven't done so, and then we will pray together before we do that. So I'm going to give you a moment right now. If you haven't yet, would you fill out the card that was on your seat? Go ahead and do that right now. So, Again, by just a logistical note, what's very helpful and what's most important is that you mark what you are planning to give over a two-year period, not necessarily at the moment but over a two-year period, that's what's going to be most helpful for our finance team as they accumulate all of this. However you break that down, whether annual gifts or weekly, that's up to you. We don't necessarily need to know that. What we need to know is what God's called on your hearts to give over a two-year period. So we just need that grand total. Again, not expecting it right at this moment, but over the next two years. So we want to go to prayer before we offer this gift. And I want to read to you a passage. 1 Chronicles 29 is the last chapter of that book. And it records when King David was leading the Israelites to give so that the temple could be built. This is before the temple was built, but David is leading the people to give so that the temple could be built. Now, key difference, the temple was where God dwelt in the Old Testament. Now in the New Testament, God dwells not in a building, but in his people. But like the temple, the church building is the place where the church gathers to worship. So it's important for that. So what you see in this chapter is David. David announces, here's what I'm going to give as the king. Here's what I'm giving as someone who loves the Lord, and I'm calling on everyone else to give in kind. So he talks about everything that he's gonna give, and then he says this, and I love this challenge he gives to his people. He says, who then will offer willingly, consecrating himself today to the Lord? He's not commanding, he's offering a chance for people to come before the Lord and to give in response to what he's done for them. And that's what we're saying now. Do not be guilted into this. Do not be tricked into this. Be led into this by God himself. So we're going to go to prayer. And then when I'm done, when you're ready, you may get up and lay your gifts. Would you please grab the hand of the people that you came with today? Father, we come before you on this moment Lord. Father, this is a moment that will come and go but we know Lord This is in many ways gonna help set a trajectory for this church that Father we pray you continue to bless and lead us guide Father we pray as we seek your face. We only want to go where you're calling us We only want to do what you were laying before us. And so Father would your Spirit be present during this time as we lay our gift before the altar and spiritually and physically we give our gifts before you God, you're good and we love you.

PODCAST That's a Good Question Unwrapping Christmas: Lies, Legends, and the Light of the World December 24, 2024 Jon Delger & Mitchell Leach Listen to this Episode so Hey, welcome to That's a Good Question, the podcast where we answer questions about the Christian faith in plain language. We are a podcast of Resound Media, a place you can trust to find great resources for the Christian life and church leadership. You can always submit questions that we answer on this show to resoundmedia.cc/questions . If you find this resource helpful or just jolly because it's Christmas time, please rate and review, share with some friends so that more people can encounter the life-changing truth of God's word. Also, if you know somebody who wants to hear answers to these questions, especially our Christmas questions, be sure to share it with them so they can learn and grow as well. My name is John, I'm here with Mitch. Yeah, and if you forgot someone's Christmas present, maybe the best present you could give them is sharing this podcast with them. That's right. There you go. Lots of Christmas cheer to share today. It is, this is going to be a festive episode. We're diving into lots of questions all based around Jesus's coming to earth that we celebrate at Christmas time, this time of year. So let's jump into it. First question, ready, John? I'm ready. You got your Christmas. For those who can't see visually, I'm wearing a Santa hat. Yeah, Santa hat. And we'll discuss whether that's heretical or not. Yeah, we will discuss if that's heretical or not, but just like Santa, I'm very jolly and very festive and I work very hard just one day a week. So I'm a pastor. Just kidding. All right, here's the first question. Were the shepherds and wise men actually at the manger at the same time? Good question. No, as it would have it, the shepherds receive the news on Christmas Eve and go to join the story to see baby Jesus in the manger, see Mary and Joseph right then and there. But the Magi or the wise men come much later, up to two years later, actually. You follow the story going on in Luke, you look at Herod and when he receives the news and he goes and he actually, awful thing, slaughters baby boys up to two years old. Yeah. Once he finally does get the news, relating to the timeline that the wise men are there and all that whole sequence of events. So unfortunately, our beautiful, adorable nativity scenes where they're all there at one time, unfortunately, it was never quite that picturesque. But all those characters do make their way eventually to see baby Jesus and Mary and Joseph. Yeah, I have the privilege of preaching on this passage on Epiphany Sunday, which is the Sunday after Christmas, and we get to celebrate the wise men coming and being the first people who hear the gospel who aren't Jewish. Yeah, but yeah, they're there much later. Matthew 2 talks about now after the birth of Jesus and then talking about the wise men coming. So it's definitely after. All right, our next question. Does the virgin birth matter and why? Great question. Because we make a big deal about this, right? We talk about it in the Apostles' Creed. It's part of, we talk about this, like it's a tier one thing, right? If you deny the virgin birth, then you're no longer a Christian. Why is that so central to our faith? Yeah, and you're saying that because it's in the Apostles' Creed, you're saying that's what would make you not Christian if you're saying you denied it. Correct. So you're saying, yeah. Yeah, and actually, interestingly, that's something that has been denied by some who would call themselves Christian theologians. Or for some, it wasn't denied, but it was said that it doesn't matter whether it was true or not. It's sort of a practical or functional denial of it. Actually sort of famously, Rob Bell, a pastor who used to be just up the road from us here in West Michigan, wrote a book. And in the book, he posited that what if we learned one day that Jesus actually had a dad named Larry? Interesting name choice for a Middle Eastern carpenter. First century guy. Yeah. Yeah. But let's just say that that happened. And what would that mean? And actually, the argument he made is so contrary to just even the way that you're framing the question is, you know, he said that that's a that we shouldn't view the Christian faith that way that we shouldn't view it as being so fragile that if we just pulled out one brick, I think is the analogy used from the wall that it would all crumble apart. So so yeah, let's talk about the answer to that question. Yeah, yeah, it it very much does matter. So so number one, because the Bible says it, right? The Bible is very clear. It explains it in a number of ways. It uses that word for virgin. When we look at, when we go back to Isaiah chapter seven, and we look at the prophecy of that, and we look at the Hebrew word, and then we look at the way that it was translated into Greek. There are other words they could have used. People have said, well, that word could also be translated as young woman. Well, but that wasn't the common way that you use that word. There was a specific word for that, and so they used the one that would lead us to interpret it towards virgin and then even when Greek Jews Long time ago translated the Old Testament into Greek from Hebrew. They used the Greek word then for virgin So there's a lot of ways that we know. Yeah, yeah a New Testament, right? So so there's a lot of reasons that we know that the Bible intends to say virgin Yeah We also have even you know, the detail that the Holy Spirit gives to Joseph and to Mary about, you know, the conception through the Holy Spirit. Yeah. So I think, you know, I think there's no question that the Bible is trying to tell us that Mary was a virgin and it's going to have a virgin birth. So I think you've got a Bible problem if you're gonna deny the virgin birth. Yeah, that'd be a really strange aspect of the birth story of Jesus that the angel came to Joseph if Mary's not a virgin. Sure. Right? Right. Yeah, like what's, what would be going on there? That'd be pretty hard. Right. So you've got, yeah, so you've got a question about the inerrancy of Scripture there, if you want to deny that. But also then, let's talk theologically. What makes Jesus our Savior is that he is both God and man. And that's what happens to the virgin birth. He is born of a woman, but he is conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. Yeah. So that God is his father, so that Mary is his mother. It's an amazing miracle that happens. We call it the incarnation when God becomes man. And without that, we don't have the appropriate person to pay for our sins. Yeah. Right? So human beings sin against God, and so a human being has to pay for that sin. Only the God-man can do that. And so we need Jesus to be exactly who he is, and the virgin birth is how that comes about. Yeah, the virgin birth connects both of those things, his deity, him being fully God, and also being fully man. If we remove the virgin birth, he has to be either one or the other, and he can't, again, he can't atone for our sin, right? And if you missed it last week, we talked all about different versions of the atonement theory. Go back and listen to that. That was a great episode. All right, was Jesus born on December 25th? Or maybe the better question is, is it appropriate for us to celebrate Jesus's birthday and sing him happy birthday with a birthday cake and candles and I don't know, I had family members who did that growing up. Oh yeah, for sure, me too. Yeah, and I think that's a great way to, for our kids, we, you know, just help them understand what's going on at Christmas. Yeah, it's Jesus' birthday. Yeah. Totally. Cake and candles, great way to celebrate. It was weird though, because we had to pick someone to blow out the candles and it wasn't, you know, Jesus blowing out, so it kind of felt weird, but I could see that. Yeah. Now, what we know from history is that most likely it was not on December 25th. We don't have any kind of certainty about what the date actually was when Jesus was born. So it's possible, but unlikely that it was actually December 25. So there's a few different reasons that Christmas has been celebrated on December 25. Symbolically, some have come up with the idea that, you know, it's the shortest day of the year and, you know, the winter solstice, right? Yeah, it's the shortest day of the year and from there on forward, there is, you know, growing light instead of darkness. And so symbolically, it's got the beauty of Jesus as the light of the world. And so, from the moment of his birth, light is growing, increasing in the world. So I like that. It's nice. But winter solstice is the time, and that's got a lot of history for human beings of all different kinds celebrating that time. The Romans called it Saturnalia. Other people, we have history of pagan celebrations of the winter solstice. So it was just kind of a time of the year when people of all different kinds of cultures celebrated something. And so I think early Christians were able to just kind of say, well, we need a time to celebrate Jesus's birth. This time makes sense. And I think able to take a lot of symbolism and pull it together and make a beautiful opportunity to make the season about Jesus, our Lord, instead of about idolatry. So is it still wrong to, is it wrong to have a birthday cake and candles and... No, absolutely not. Okay. No, I've heard people say that, that because the history of that date is the winter solstice, is Saturnalia, is pagan worship, that it's actually wrong for Christians to celebrate Christmas on that day. And I disagree. I just, I understand that, yeah, there's some bad history there that is not Christian at all. But that doesn't mean that we can't take that time of the year and say the real thing that we should be celebrating, the real answer to the darkness in the world, to go back to the calendar and the timing and all that, the real answer to the darkness of the world is the light of Jesus. So I think there's beautiful symbolism there. I think there's nothing wrong with Christians taking that date and using it that way. Yeah. I think when you look at history, any day you pick something bad happened on that day. And so, any day you pick there's gonna be something that you're gonna look at and go, oh we probably shouldn't be celebrating on this day. Well, yeah, we got to pick a day to do that. Fun fact, did you know that for a period of time the Puritans actually banned celebration of Christmas? Yeah, they did, yep, I do. Pretty, pretty interesting. Yeah. I think you could dig into in history there, but one of the primary reasons was they felt like it was too Catholic. Yeah. So banned celebrating Christmas. Yeah, it also got pretty crazy. Like the way that early America celebrated Christmas, it got like pretty. So the drunkenness and violence and stuff like that. People got a little wild in their festivities. Time out, time out on Christmas. Yep. Seems like a good title for a Hallmark movie, Time Out on Christmas. All right, next question. Getting into your Santa hat, should we tell our, should Christians tell their kids about Santa Claus? Yeah, maybe I shouldn't have worn a Santa hat for this episode here. How about this, do you tell your kids about Santa Claus? We tell our kids about Santa Claus. We don't tell them that Santa Claus is real. We're pretty clear that Santa Claus is not real. Now, I'm not trying to shame parents on either side of this whole thing. I mean, you know, whatever. I'll be honest, we don't just because he's not real. You know, I don't wanna, this is gonna sound mean to our parents who have chosen to tell their kids about Santa Claus. If you're under the age of, oh yeah, yeah, sorry, yeah, spoiler alert for young kids. If you got the young kids in there, maybe. Yeah, yeah, our huge population of first graders who are listening to. Yeah, that's a good question. Right. No, I mean, it's one of those things. I just, I wouldn't want, I didn't want to go through that period of time when my kids go, wait a minute, you lied to me. Yeah. I didn't want to have to explain that. So, if you're a parent and you've made a different decision, that's the, you know, whatever. I think there's reasons you can come up with to make that make sense. So I'm not against Santa Claus. Saint Nick was a real person. A great dude who did some great things in church history. Yeah, dude, I mean, that guy was pretty hardcore. Saint Nicholas, the history on him, if you like history, that's definitely a guy to go back and research. He did some pretty sweet stuff, but yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's some great history there. I love the symbolism. Jesus is God's greatest gift to us. And so the giving of gifts at Christmas time, you know, symbolically it goes back to the wise men bringing gifts to Jesus. But so there's lots of, I think there's lots of rich tradition there that we can use to point to Jesus. I think that's a great thing. So yeah, we don't do it just because I don't want, I don't want to have that conversation one day with my kids about, yeah, we told you that, but it wasn't true. Yeah. And I, especially one of the things that my wife and I have discussed and thought about is just, I don't ever want my kids to one day be like, well, what else did you tell us that wasn't true? Such as Jesus himself. You know, I just don't want to, I just don't want to get there. That's what happened to me. My parents went like all out on Santa Claus. Like they, I think my dad put ashes on his boots and would like walk on the roof. So it looked like you know Santa coming from the chimney and walking. I mean like the the apologetic that they went through to prove Santa Claus was real. It was so so intense. I remember when I found out I asked you know Santa Claus he's not real, the Easter bunny no not real, Tooth Fairy no, Jesus and my parents like oh wait no no no Jesus is real. Because like in my head, those are all kind of in the same, you know, almost the same category of these characters who are seemingly omnipresent or omniscient and, you know, can go travel everywhere on one day and, you know, know whether you're naughty or nice, you know, that kind of stuff. Well, while we don't tell our kids he's real, we do laugh and joke about Santa Claus. We watch the movies, the Santa Claus, the best Christmas movie, Tim Allen. Claus with an E. Yep, Claus with an E, the best explanation of what Santa Claus is. But I do want to say, by the way, that some of the things around the Santa Claus myth are very anti-gospel. I actually remember one time doing a sermon on this topic. I'm actually, let me pull it up. I don't know the lyrics off the top of my head, but just listen to some of these lyrics from the, what is this, Santa Claus is coming to town? Yeah, I was going to ask, what are some dangerous aspects of Santa Claus that maybe we should help our children understand? But yeah, so you're going right into that. Yeah, I usually teach about this a little bit at some point around Christmas time. But the giving of gifts is supposed to be from grace, not from works. It's supposed to be a picture of the gospel, but unfortunately the Santa Claus thing goes the other direction. It's all about a naughtier, nice list, right? So here's the lyrics from Santa Claus is Coming to Town. It says, you better watch out, you better not cry, you better not pout, I'm telling you why, Santa Claus is coming to town. It's a little concerning, actually. Cried, pouted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of shame, a lot of guilt going on there. You're on the naughty list. Yeah. And then he gets right to it. He's making a list and checking it twice. Gonna find out who's naughty or nice. Okay, so the gift giving is not actually grace, it's works. If you were good, you get a gift. If you were naughty, you get coal, right? It's not grace, it's very works-based. And then to me, the last verse here is just plain creepy. He sees you when you're sleeping. He knows when you're awake. He knows if you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake. And I think there's just irony in the last one. Sure. Because it's not actually telling you to be good for goodness sake. It's telling you to be good for a presence sake. Yeah. So I think that's the – yeah, those are the dangers I think maybe is if your kids were to think that all of it is superstition, including the parts about God, about Jesus, about scripture that you tell them and then also just the gospel versus the grace versus works Yeah, part of it. Yeah, you can put a false view of Like how gifts are meant to be given I also think that there's just a huge disparity if Santa Claus real is real and how he distributes presents between Wealthy and poor people a little bit scary I remember being a kid and you know looking at my rich friends going how come Santa Claus got them an Xbox and not me? I mean, what the heck like I was good like Well, I'm frozen concert right then your parents got to blame Santa you sure I understand It's super convenient for parents right like we have we have family to a certain extent though I did have somebody say something to me recently and I I jokingly said well no I don't tell my kids about Santa Claus. I want all the credit There you go. I'm gonna spend the money right? Yeah, right. I want the credit. I'm not giving that to somebody else. Yeah. We have family who criticizes us because we also don't do Santa Claus. They said, well, what do you do when your kids are naughty in December? You can hang that over their head saying, you better be good. I think I just saw one of Santa's elves. I'm like, man, I don't want to use Santa as a weapon to manipulate my kids into behaving better. Maybe that's convenient, but like, that stops once they're like, what, in like second grade? Or I don't know what you mean. We don't mess around with Elf on the Shelf or Santa's Not Your Niceness. We just talk about the wrath of God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, don't worry about coal, worry about hell. There you go. Let's move into our next question. Should Christians have Christmas trees? Yeah, so if you go back and study some of the history of the Christmas tree, again, whenever you go into the history of some of these long time cultural symbols, you're going to find different lines of history, right? There's no like 100% approved story of where this exactly came from. We don't have this in Slo Mo. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's some different traditions about where this really came from. But regardless of where you look, you're probably going to find pagan background to the idea of the Christmas tree. Some of it... Could you explain what pagan means? I think we sometimes say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great question. Yeah, so pagan basically meaning, you know, opposite of biblical religion. Sure. Sort of worldly religious practices. Sure. Often arising from some kind of worship of something in creation. Yeah. Right? You know, a god of the sun, a god of the harvest, a god, you know, those kinds of things. So when we say pagan religion, that's usually what we're referring to. So yeah, in pagan religion, it was just the evergreen is a powerful symbol, right? It's something that is just always green, always has life, never loses. It doesn't go away in the winter. So there's always, I think, been some symbolism around the pine tree or spruce trees or whatever you use. Just because of that life sort of property to it. There's also, if you go into even going back into some Old Testament stuff, you think of the Asherah poles. I don't know how many people know this, but in the Old Testament, the Asherah poles that Israel sometimes adopted from their neighbors, those were actually... What's the appropriate word I can use to describe this here? It was an image of male genitalia. Yeah. And so it had to do with fertilization, had to do with the god of having fertile crops and all those kinds of things. Reproducing. Reproducing. Yep. Yep. So, and that shape, that symbolism, often using trees or poles to picture it. And so you will hear that there's some history there that maybe the Christmas tree came from an ashtray pole. Yeah. Which is obviously bad. All right. So what does that mean for us? Yeah. We use it or not. Yeah. I tend to think it's OK as long as it's not your intention. Yeah. I think if you're worshipping an ashtray pole and putting up a Christmas tree in your home. Bad. Yeah, that's bad. You shouldn't do that. You definitely should not do that. That's, yeah, that's sin. That's idolatry. It's not good stuff. I don't think, I think most people who put up Christmas trees don't have that background in there. And that's not a prominent background for us today. You know, if we lived in like a culture where most people saw a Christmas tree and thought that, then I'd be like, well, you know, we should probably not do that because even if we don't believe that, we're maybe sending a confusing signal to our neighbors. But, you know, in modern day, the United States, I just don't think people have those backgrounds in their mind. It's so closely associated with Christmas that when you see it, nobody thinks, very few people think, you know, this is pagan worship. They think, oh, that person's just trying to celebrate. I had a seminary professor who was definitely against Christmas trees. Really? Yep. He was hardcore against Christmas trees for the Asherah connection. But yeah, I just don't think that cultural history is near enough or prominent enough for us to really fear that. Well, like Martin Luther was one of the big proponents of Christmas trees. He's famous for being the guy who, at least supposedly, was first to put lights on the Christmas tree. Yeah. He looked up in the night sky on Christmas Eve, saw the beauty of the stars, went home, put lights on his Christmas tree. Yeah. Which is wildly dangerous. My dad was a fireman and I've seen way too many videos of Christmas trees just like going up just like that. I mean, they catch on fire so quickly. So to think that they were putting candles in Christmas trees, or in pine trees. Yeah. Just crazy. But yeah, a little easier nowadays. Next question. Should Christians celebrate Christmas with presents? Yeah, I think there's nothing wrong with celebrating with presents. It's a great, I think you just explained to the kids the symbolism here, that God gave us the greatest gift in his son, Jesus Christ, who came, was born in a manger, lived the righteous life that we couldn't live, died the death for sin that we deserve to die, rose again so we could put our faith in him and have eternal life. So just remind them of the symbolism. Also going back to the wise men, right? The wise men brought gifts to Jesus. Yeah. So likewise, we share gifts at Christmas time. But what about the viewpoint of saying, you know, that's very capitalist of you to say, John, giving gifts, falling into this commercial of maybe very Hallmark holiday kind of thing. Yeah, I guess I could understand that, but it doesn't have to be that way, right? There's nothing, maybe in defensive capitalism, there's nothing wrong with market. The market is not an evil thing inherently. Unfortunately, we are sinful human beings and we can be consumed with greed and use it for all the wrong things. But there's nothing inherently wrong with the exchange of goods. So it's a great thing, giving of gifts. Christmas, the idea of giving gifts, you know, reflecting back to the greatest gift that we were given is such a great symbol, right? I think, if you're using Christmas as a way to, you know, celebrate materialism rather than the birth of Christ, you know, I think you can get, that can be confusing for kids, it can be confusing for a lot of people but sure you know yeah yeah in the gospel yeah you know that's that's the point yeah yeah there's always a way to screw this up right yeah right maybe trying to help our kids realize that's not all about stuff yeah that can be I think a valuable thing for our culture really it's not all about consumerism kids it's not about just trying to get the coolest new toy or whatever it is you know trying to help them remember the symbolism. Yeah. Speaking of ways that we can threaten our children, sometimes when our kids are acting naughty, my wife will say, what if there were no presence under, under the tree, you know, would you still be happy? And to say, you know, their, their answer is, you know, yes, because Jesus is our greatest gift, but sometimes she says that and they go, that's funny. Well, will there be no presents? Well, actually, so I've seen videos of, maybe you've seen some parenting advice videos. I think that is such a terrible practice. Somebody who, they demonstrated that when December rolls around every year, they wrap up a bunch of empty boxes and put them under the Christmas tree. And then when their kids are naughty, they take one and they throw it in the fireplace. That's crazy. Oh man. That's going to be traumatizing for kids. I can only imagine what that would do to a kid. It's like those videos where the Grinch comes out. I see that and I'm just like, who thought this was a good idea? You know? Like scaring two year olds. Like yeah, I don't know. Grinch is a scary character. I'm sorry if you've done that and I've offended you, but don't do that. That's wild. Yeah. All right. Last question, was Jesus born in a barn? Maybe. There's a few options looking at the texts that they could point us to. I mean, just thinking about ancient Israel and just the terrain and the geography, I think there's a lot of likelihood for a cave that that's probably more like where they would have kept animals and where just, you know, just look at the geography of Bethlehem and that kind of thing. I think cave makes a lot of sense. I've heard other people say, you know, look at the etymology of that word and in context and stuff that maybe that's actually more like just a guest room off of a house, a place where maybe animals were kept as well as guests, things like that. Yeah, the word for inn is probably better translated guest room, right? But in a lot of Jewish homes, there was a place for the animals to come inside, which kind of sounds crazy that you'd keep animals in your house. I mean, that's your livelihood, right? So you're going to treat them as well as you can. And so the, you know, one theory aside from a cave is that, you know, Jesus was born in that part of the house where the animals were kept. Right. And that's why there he was placed in a manger, you know, in a trough really. Yeah. Yep. Feeding trough. Mm-hmm. Yeah, we, uh, in the last year or so, we've become a little bit of hobby farmers. We've got some goats. Yeah. So, uh, don't tell my kids, but I'm excited on Christmas. I plan to take them, no, no, no goats in my house. I thought that's where you were going. Oh man, that's not where I was going. No, I'm, oh my goodness. Well, Eden, they are, they're letting stuff go all the time. So no, I was gonna bring the kids out to our goat shed and use that as a little bit of a illustrative tool there. So this is probably what it looked like, smelled like. Not a real great smelling place or goat shed. No, no. I think that's a beautiful picture of the, you know, like the Westminster Confession talks about what, you know, the humiliation of Jesus that he was brought so low. You know, he left heaven, the most glorious place, and put on human flesh. He was born in a stinky room or cave with animals and itchy hay. Yeah, I even think, yeah, there's a song I like that talks about Jesus that he stumbled as he learned to walk upon the ground he made. Just a crazy, the beauty of the incarnation also, I think we have to balance it with understanding that Jesus really, this thing becoming a human was a tremendously humiliating and humbling thing for him. Right. Made low. Yeah, it's amazing. Incarnation is an amazing miracle that we should be awestruck by when we consider that God would become a man, take on flesh, all out of love for us in order to save us from our sin. Amen. Well, we hope that you all enjoy celebrating Christmas time with family or friends, or most importantly, with your brothers and sisters in Christ. Go to a Christmas Eve service, go to a Christmas Day service, worship the Savior for who he is and what he has done. We hope you have an awesome week and an awesome holiday. Merry Christmas, everybody. You can like, follow, subscribe, resoundmedia.cc , Instagram, TikTok, or YouTube. Have a great week. Yeah. Bye!

A Faith That Listens To God's Voice Sermon Series: A Faith that Endures Nate Harney Executive Pastor Peace Church Main Passage: 1 Kings 19:1-18 Transcript Well, good morning Peace Church. My name is Pastor Nate. I'm the family pastor here. It's a joy to be with you this morning. I just want to welcome everyone who's also joining us online and in the chapel and the venue. We're so glad you're here with us. Well, I found that you know, you're starting to get a little older when your primary doctor can no longer help you with everything that ails you. They got to start referring you out to some specialists. Some of you know what I'm talking about. I just did my first visit to an ENT, an ear, nose, and throat doctor, so that was fun. And what they wanted to look at in me is for about a year now, I've just had this constant relentless ringing in both of my ears. I can hear it right now. It's frustrating. It gets on my nerves, so they're trying to help me out with it. And the first thing they wanted to do is do a hearing test. They want to make sure that I'm not experiencing hearing loss. And what I actually ended up telling them when they told me we're going to do a hearing test to see if this is related, I let them know I've been struggling with hearing problems my whole life. I've actually, I always have difficulty hearing. And so, I said, even longer than just a year I've been dealing with this ringing. And even the first couple of years with my wife, she had to learn that I'm not very good at hearing and there was times where it caused a little friction, but we figured it out, we worked through it. But anyway, I did the test and the results came back and they were shocking to me because I found out that I have perfect hearing. I was shocked. I went home and told my wife she was not. She let me know that she had this sneaking suspicion since the first couple weeks of our marriage that I didn't have a hearing problem, that I had what her words not mine, a listening problem. She said a bunch of other stuff too, but I wasn't really paying attention. So I don't. This morning, as we continue to walk with Elijah, we're gonna be seeing in God's word the importance of listening. We are gonna see that the Bible says a lot about listening in general, but in this passage that we're looking at, we're gonna see that a faith that endures listens to God's voice. So this morning, we are in 1 Kings 19. It's not gonna be up on the screen, so go ahead and turn there in your Bibles, pull them up on your phone if you got them. And just as a review, if you weren't here last week, we heard from Pastor Ryan. He preached on the previous chapter, 1 Kings 18. And in that chapter, we know that Elijah had a total showdown with the prophets of Baal, this false god. He went head-to-head with 450 of these prophets. They both built altars and the Lord, the one true God, the one Elijah worships, sent fire from heaven. And so, so much so that they found out the truth about whose God was real, that Elijah actually put those 450 prophets to death. And so Elijah, where we meet him, he's coming down off a mountain both literally and metaphorically. He's coming down from Mount Carmel, but he's been on the spiritual high point. And we're going to meet Elijah at one of the lowest points of this prophet's spiritual journey. Things can change fast. 1 Kings 19:1-3 So we're picking up in first Kings 19. We're gonna be reading verses one through three and then nine through 18. So please read along with me. 1 Ahab told Jezebel all that Elijah had done, and how he had killed all the prophets with the sword. 2 Then Jezebel sent a messenger to Elijah, saying, “So may the gods do to me and more also, if I do not make your life as the life of one of them by this time tomorrow.” 3 Then he was afraid, and he arose and ran for his life and came to Beersheba, which belongs to Judah, and left his servant there. So pause with me here. Verses four through eight, which we're not gonna read this morning, it tells this beautiful little story of Elijah is exhausted, he needs rest. God provides a meal for him. He rejuvenates and refreshes him. Then Elijah travels for 40 days, 40 nights, and he arrives at Mount Horeb. 1 Kings 19:9-18 That's where we'll pick up in verse nine. Here's where it says, 9 There he came to a cave and lodged in it. And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said to him, “What are you doing here, Elijah?” 10 He said, “I have been very jealous for the LORD, the God of hosts. For the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword, and I, even I only, am left, and they seek my life, to take it away.” 11 And he said, “Go out and stand on the mount before the LORD.” And behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind tore the mountains and broke in pieces the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. And after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. 12 And after the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire the sound of a low whisper. 13 And when Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his cloak and went out and stood at the entrance of the cave. And behold, there came a voice to him and said, “What are you doing here, Elijah?” 14 He said, “I have been very jealous for the LORD, the God of hosts. For the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword, and I, even I only, am left, and they seek my life, to take it away.” 15 And the LORD said to him, “Go, return on your way to the wilderness of Damascus. And when you arrive, you shall anoint Hazael to be king over Syria. 16 And Jehu the son of Nimshi you shall anoint to be king over Israel, and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abel-meholah you shall anoint to be prophet in your place. 17 And the one who escapes from the sword of Hazael shall Jehu put to death, and the one who escapes from the sword of Jehu shall Elisha put to death. 18 Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.” Prayer Would you pray with me? Father, as we open your word today, I pray that you would open our hearts and our minds and our ears to listen, to listen to what you're speaking to us today through your word. Pray this in Jesus' name, amen. Well, if we are gonna have a faith that endures, we need to listen to God's voice and we need to beware of other voices. Look back at the first verse from chapter 19 with me and see what was the voice that Elijah was listening to. As a reminder, I said this before, Pastor Ryan preached on it last week. Elijah has just called down fire from heaven and then he battles and kills 450 prophets of Baal. Keep that in mind as we go back to verse one. So Ahab told Jezebel all that Elijah had done and how he had killed all the prophets with the sword. So how does the queen respond to this news? Verse two tells us that Jezebel sends a simple message to Elijah, you're dead. Elijah's response to the threat, in verse three we see he's so afraid that he runs for his life. I'm gonna say it one more time. Elijah has just called down an all-consuming fire from the sky. Get your picture of that. And then he kills 450 men. For those of you who are basketball fans here, in the NBA, there are 30 teams, 15 on each roster. If you do some quick math, there are 450 guys in the entire league. Elijah was just able to defeat the equivalent of a modern sports league, and he gets this one message from one voice, and it freaks him out enough that he runs for his life. What is going on here, Elijah? Now, it would be very easy for us to sit back today, read this account, and judge Elijah for his response. How can you let one voice speak louder than the voice of the Lord with all you've seen, with all that God has done for you? It would be really easy to sit back and do that today. But how many of us do the exact same thing over and over and over again, day in and day out? Elijah saw the glory of God partially revealed in some amazing miracles. We here on the other side of the New Testament, we've seen the glory of God fully revealed in the person of Jesus Christ. T he book of John says that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. We know how the story ends. We know the good news. We know revelation. We know that the battle is already won and the victory belongs to the Lord. But how many times do we still listen to so many other voices in our life instead of the Lord's voice as the first voice speaking into our lives? It's hard because in this modern world that is just undergirded and then propelled forward by just almost an endless amount of media and voices and content flowing into our minds, into our lives. I think for the younger people here, the number of voices that speak in your life every day just through social media, just through a different swipe every couple of seconds, another voice, another perspective, another person speaking into your life. Or maybe if you're not a social media person, I think of potentially some of the older generations here, just a 24-hour news cycle. There's always a voice available. We can always access another voice to speak into our life. Voice after voice after voice. We know what Elijah knew back then, that we should be listening to the voice of God before all else. But do we actually stop and listen? If you're newer to peace, you're probably already starting to figure out that whatever pastor is preaching here, we wanna focus primarily on what God is saying through his word. We love the Bible here. We come back to the Bible. We are driven by the Bible. We are all about the Bible. And if you don't know, it's not just because we're obsessed with some random book. It's because we believe that this is the word of God. If you wanna hear God speak, we're gonna come back to this over and over and over again this morning. The primary means that we do that are we open up to God's word and we listen. That is how we hear the voice of the Lord. And that is how we drown out all the other voices that are trying to speak into our lives. So you'll be blessed if you learn today if you take away that we need to beware of outside voices that go against what is taught in God's word. But Elijah found, and I'm sure many of you will relate to this here today, that sometimes the most dangerous voice that speaks into our life isn't coming from the outside, but it's right up here. Look with me at verse nine, and we're gonna see that we, it's not enough just to be aware of other voices, but we need to be aware of our own voice too. Verse nine, says this, Elijah came to the cave and lodged in it, and behold, the word of the Lord came to him and he said to him, what are you doing here, Elijah? And Elijah responds, I've been very jealous of the Lord, the God of hosts. Elijah speaks from his own perspective. And it's generally true, Elijah was a very faithful man and prophet, but he's not perfect. Look at how he keeps going. He says, for the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with a sword. Now, as sad as it is, there's truth there. That was happening in Israel but Elijah is starting to let his emotions get the best of him and starting to let that voice in his own head speak over the lords this is an exaggeration this is happening in Israel but not all the Israelites are doing this let's keep going here's where it gets really bad Elijah says and I even I only in last and they seek my life to take it away. There it is. Elijah takes some things that are mostly true and he mixes it in with the voice in his head and the feelings of depression that he's experiencing and the anxiety that's overwhelming him in this moment and it leads him to embrace some half-truths flat out lie. When he says, I, even I only am left, the voice in Elijah's head is saying, you are absolutely and completely alone. Everyone, everyone else has abandoned God and you are all that's left, Elijah. You are completely, utterly alone. Does Elijah really feel this way? We know he does. And the reason we know he does is because God actually gives him another chance. He asks him the same question, he gets a redo, and Elijah gives the exact same answer. He is down in the darkness. He says, verse 14, it could look like a typo if you didn't know, he says the exact same thing. He says I have been very jealous for the Lord, the God of hosts. For the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with a sword. And I, even I only am left. And they seek my life to take it away." The voice in Elijah's head, it's consistent and it's certainly persistent, but it's also just flat-out wrong. How do we know he was wrong? Because the voice of the Lord speaks and gently but clearly corrects him. In verses 15, 16, and 17, God gives Elijah the names of three new allies, Hazel, Jehu, and Elisha. God's saying, Elijah, the voice in your head says that you're alone, wrong. Here are three names, you are not alone. But God doesn't stop with three, does he? Look at the last verse with me, 18, where God provides just this heaping bowl of truth and perspective on the lies coming from Elijah's head. Verse 18 says, yet I will leave, if you're looking at it, how many? 7,000 in Israel, 7,000. All the knees that have not bowed to bail and every mouth that has not kissed him The Lord is saying again Elijah. You think you're the only one who stayed faithful to the Lord You think you're all alone and he just uses the truth to cut through those lies Coming from the voice in his head And he says there are 7,000 in Israel who haven't bent the knee to bail Elijah. You are not alone. So was the voice in Elijah's head telling him the truth? No, it wasn't. But what do we do with that today? We all know that we got voices in our own head, that our own perspective is sometimes off and needs to be corrected. How do we practically turn down the volume of that voice in our own head and just crank up the voice of the Lord. Well, if you're paying attention, you're already going to know where I'm going to go with this one. But I want to tell you something about my life first. There's a sense when I read this account in the life of Elijah that I connect with it, I resonate with it in a very, very personal way. Elijah is completely down in the dumps and he's just dealing with total depression and anxiety. Now I have received, I've never shared this publicly, just hasn't come up, but I'm not ashamed to share that I've received an official clinical formal diagnosis of having depression and anxiety. That's something I battled for years, something I even battle today. Now, when you bring up this topic of mental health, I'm sure for so many of you here, there's a lot of thoughts and questions going through your head as I share this. I'm gonna address two corrections I think that might be needed for some of us today, and I'm gonna give one thing, one takeaway for all of us. So, first of all, I would guess that in a room this large with people coming from so many different experiences and walks of life, that there are some of you who might've just heard one of your pastors say that he has some mental health issues. And you might think, whoa, timeout. Is that okay? Why are you up on stage right now if you're dealing with bigger problems than maybe even I got. I can totally understand if you're feeling that way, but can I go full Pastor Ryan on you for like 10 seconds? I understand that perspective, but if you have that perspective, you're totally wrong. I just want to be really honest with you. You're wrong. And the reason I know that is because the voice of the Lord in the Scriptures, if you look through the Scriptures, it's not just Elijah, but God has a habit, he has a tendency to use the weak and the broken to bring about his purposes in the church and in this world. You can look through all of church history, we can look through all the scriptures. God loves using weak and broken people to do great things for his glory. Now, I'm not talking about the qualifications that we find in scripture that are necessary for all of our pastors to meet. I'm not talking about sin here. I'm talking about weakness and brokenness that we're working through. So I don't want to be heard incorrectly there. But there's another group I would worry about how you would respond to something like this. Because there's a whole spectrum that the stigma that comes with mental health can bring about. I would guess there's some of you in the room and I would lean on thinking it would be some of the younger people here. You might have just heard one of your pastors say, you know, I battle with some mental health issues. And you might be thinking, cool, I want mental health issues. That sounds interesting and unique. I got to tell you, if that's your perspective, and some of you are thinking, who would think that? There's just this strange growing wave among some young people that they think this is there's something cool or fun or unique. Can I tell you it's not cool, it's not fun, and nowadays it's not even all that unique anymore? There's nothing that you would want to pursue about this because the source of it is the brokenness that comes from the fall and from the lies that come from our enemy that fill up our brains. This is not something that I would wish on anyone, but if it is something that you deal with, I just want you to know that there are so many ways that you can receive help. I personally have received help in lots of different ways, but there is one primary way that has made a bigger difference in my battle with this than anything else. And it doesn't just apply for the people in this room who battle in the same way I do or Elijah was in this moment, but I know humanity. I know that for each and every one of us, there are times where you are down, where you're dealing with total sadness, where you are worried, you're dealing with tons of anxieties that come from this life in this world, where there are lies in your head, and it might not be something that you deal with all the time, but if you haven't dealt with it yet, you will sometime. And I want to give us all the same encouragement. There are lots of different helpful and beneficial ways to get help for that kind of thing, but none of them, I wanna be very clear, none of them are as helpful, as important, and as primary as listening for the voice of God that is found here in the scriptures. Here's what I mean by that. In my life, I got three little kids, I got an awesome wife, I got a very important job helping with an amazing church where God's doing great things. And while that is an incredible thing, there's times where it feels like a huge weight. There's times where I feel very afraid and that leads to some of this depression and anxiety that I'm talking about. And in those moments when I'm afraid, Isaiah 41 10 so do not fear for I am with you do not be dismayed for I am your God I will bless you I will help you and I will uphold you with my righteous right hand when the waves of anxious thoughts and depressive feelings are just crashing over my mind. Philippians 4, rejoice in the Lord always. I'll say it again, rejoice. Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition with thanksgiving, present your request to God and the peace of God that transcends all understanding will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. When the voices in your head are getting loud and saying lies the only thing that can fully and primarily drown them out is when the voice of the Lord speaks louder. If that's something that you battle with as well, I'm not saying that there's not plenty of other different ways to seek help. And I would love to talk with you about any of those things. I've been talking with a lot of people this morning about that topic specifically. But what I am saying is that for years and years there was this tendency to just tell people read your Bible, read your Bible, read your Bible and not find any other solutions. I'm not saying that. In fact, I think the pendulum swung a little bit the other way at this point where sometimes, especially for some of the young people in the room, you might be seeking every other source, every other voice besides this one. And this is the most important voice you could have in your life, regardless of what you're battling. If we're gonna have enduring faith, we need to beware of the outside voices coming in. We need to beware of the inside voices that can try to drive us away from God's word that is found in the voice of the Lord. And lastly, we need to beware of noise and novelty. We've been talking about listening to God's voice over the other voices, but we also need to be careful that we're listening to God's voice in the right way, listening for the right things. Look at verse 11 as we're going to see how God teaches us something about this, about his voice in the story of Elijah. Verse 11 says this, "'And he said,' this is the Lord, "'he said, go out and stand on the mount before the Lord. "'And behold, the Lord passed by, "'and a great and strong wind tore the mountains "'and broken pieces the rocks before the Lord. "'But the Lord was not in the wind. "'And after the wind, an earthquake, "'but the Lord was not in the earthquake and after the earthquake a fire But the Lord was not in the fire and after the fire the sound of a low whisper When Elijah heard it he wrapped his face in his cloak and went out and stood at the entrance of the cave and Behold there came a voice to him and said what are you doing here Elijah? hear Elijah. Now this is probably the most famous passage that comes out of this chapter of scripture. So you might be familiar with this part of the story. There are the crashing winds and the rumbling quake. There's the burning fire, but God speaks to Elijah through a quiet, ordinary whisper. Even with all of his weakness, Elijah knows the Lord enough to hear his voice. He's listening, he can recognize and identify that still small whisper of the Lord through all the noise happening around him on that mountain. I wonder for us today, if we were on Mount Horeb with Elijah, would we be looking for something in the fire and in the quake and in the wind? Imagine for a moment with me that when I started this message, if I would have said, you know, I had a sermon prepared, but I woke up this morning and God spoke to me. So I got a message to bring to you today. You probably perk up a little bit. I know if I was sitting out there I'd be like, okay, here we go. This is gonna be interesting, right? Well, that's exactly what happened. Now, not in the splashy, flashy ways that sometimes we seek after, but after studying God's Word, I'll tell you, I woke up this morning about an hour earlier than I wanted to, but I woke up early this morning and I opened up God's word. And do you know what happened? God spoke to me in 1 Kings 19. Do you know how I know that happened? Because every time you open God's word, He is speaking. We forget how special these moments are. We forget how incredible it is that we have the Word of the Lord at our fingertips at all times. We can hear the voice of God whenever we want. We just need to open the book and read. And I get it. I'm in the same spot. Sometimes I want the loud, I want the noisy, I want the new, the novel. I want the fires from Mount Carmel. I don't want the quiet whispers of Mount Horeb. You know, I want the show. But is there a chance that if that's all we're looking for, we can miss the quiet and ordinary way that God wants to speak to us every single day of our lives? Could we be missing that? I want you to think about that today. If we wanna figure out how to open our ears to hear the still small whisper of the Lord, I wanna put it very clearly, very simply. You open up this book and you read and you receive the word of the Lord. And I get it, I grew up in the church. I know that the read your Bible message comes off as pretty repetitive. You've heard it before. In fact, probably, it's probably one of the main takeaways in most of the messages you sat through. And here in West Michigan, I know that many of you have sat through a lot of sermons. You know, you're supposed to read your Bible, read your Bible, read your Bible. So I'm not gonna say that to you this morning. I wanna frame it a little bit differently. My hope and prayer for you this week, whether it's later today, tomorrow morning, or sometime later on, is that you wouldn't just read your Bible, that you would listen to the voice of the Lord. By that I mean read your Bible. This is how we hear God speak in the most primary and fundamental sense. The God who created and sustains the universe loves you and He is speaking to you through His Word. Are we listening? Would you stand up with me this morning? I wanna pray for you. And my prayer for all of us is wherever you're at in life, whether you're on the mountaintop of Mount Carmel or you're down in the depths with Elijah as he's just pouring out his heart before the Lord. My prayer over all of us today is that we would learn to tune our hearts and our minds and our ears to the voice of the Lord that is given to us in his word. Ending Prayer Would you pray with me? Heavenly Father, we thank you so much that you've revealed yourself to us, that you speak to us. And God, we confess that we don't always seek out your voice we don't always listen, but we know your grace covers that. We thank you for Jesus. We thank you for the cross and the empty grave. And Lord, we pray now that we would become people who just desperately seek after your voice. That we would not have to only discipline ourselves to read our Bibles, but we would delight in seeking after hearing your voice in the scriptures. God, I pray by the power of the Holy Spirit, you would fill each and every one of us to do just that this week. We love you, Jesus, and we pray all of this in your name. Amen.